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My 6 year old, middle of the line Bosch does an excellent job. The regular cycle gets dishes that have not been pre-rinsed completely clean, even if they have been sitting for days.  It does have a manual clean filter, but the only things I have found in it are toothpicks and twist ties - things that must have snuck into the dishwasher stuck on the bottom of something. I only need to check it a few times a year. I wouldn't let a manual clean filter scare you away from a dishwasher. I like that the Bosch heats the wash and rinse water to a set temp, which is probably why I get such consistent results. In the summer, a regular cycle takes around 99 minutes, and in the winter about 10 minutes longer.
 
my 2001 Bosch....

...does not have a sensor to reduce wash time. Normal cycle runs about 1:50. PowerScrubPlus cycle runs about 2:15. Normal cycle suffices for all but the most heavily encrusted loads, and rinsing is never required (only scraping is needed). Results are superior as long as proper cycle is selected. There is also a Quick Wash 0:30 cycle, which is ok for very lightly soiled loads (example: having people over for coffee and cookies) but not enough for baked on residue or dried food on dishes.
 
LG

our LG takes 2 hr 25 min on eco (we dont use that cycle often), 34 min on quick (we use that quite alot) but most of the time we use the auto cycle that uses all its sensors to determine the perfect cycle time and its always different and includes 30 mins for drying. the eco cycle also has a 30 min dry time but no dry on the quick
 
long cycles and etching

Have any of you, with the newer machines and soft water, experienced etching of glassware due to the extended cycles of some of these machines?

From what I understand, a DW detergent's propensity to pull metal ions (etching) out of glasses increases with time and temperature (but does not readily occur in harder water). With some of these machines recirculating wash water for an hour and a half + over dishes, would seem to increase the etching or cloudiness of glasses that occurs over time.

In a related aside, did any of you notice that Consumer Reports last test of DW detergents did not include etching tendancies of DW detergents. This was strange as this was always one of their primary concerns and an important rating factor in the past.

I found Quantum to be the worst for etching glasses from my experience. Never had a problem with Cascade Complete packets, though. When I lived in Ohio I had softened water (0 grains hardness).

Now that I moved to Tennessee I have mildly hard water (approx. 10 grains) and have no etching with any detergents (so far).

In a softwater situation, I just can't imagine the etching that must be occuring to glassware in some of these machines with long cycles.
 
I haven't found etching to be a particular problem in our Bosch with softener. Of course, too much detergent or washing delicate glasses on the 167F cycle won't do them any favor...
 
My Bosch DW is not hot to the touch (has a white metal panel----no wood panel to match cabinets) but is noticeably warm. It is so quiet that sometimes the only way to know it's running is to touch the front door panel. If PowerScrubPlus cycle (160 F or 80 C final rinse) is used, the DW also heats the countertop above it (slightly warm) a bit.

 

Bosch DWs vary in the amount of insulation used, mainly in an effort to reduce noise rather than heat transfer. I have a base model that runs at 52 decibels which is sufficiently quiet to me. Some of the high end models run  at about 43-45 decibels. Decibels use a logarithmic scale, and 10 raised to the 0.7 power (52-45=7) is about 5.0, so if those decibel ratings are accurate, the lower end models are five times noisier than the high end models.....but the noise level on my DW is so much lower than the GE it replaced that I barely notice it. 

 

I would imagine that the extra insulation around the sides of the higher end DW would also impede heat transfer, but I don't know if door construction is upgraded in the high end models so as to impede heat. Bosch DWs in the USA are made at a US plant, supposedly to German specifications. It's possible that the design is dumbed down for American consumers who are so impressed with the machine's overall performance that they don't notice minor issues like heat transfer through a door due to less insulation than in Europe.
 
My Kenmore Elite TT just did a china/Gentle cycle with low-energy/extra light soil sensed and incoming water temp at 140 (rare at my house and am doing whites/towels/sheets laundry) in 1:24, including heated dry. It didn't drain the pre-wash and main waash was only 20 minutes long, usually it's about 30 to 33 with my typical water temp of the water heater set at 120. Without heated dry, the time would have been about 55 minutes.
 
Barry---I tend to have a heavy hand with dishwasher detergent, as many of my loads contain at least a couple of pots/pans in them.

I did notice my inexpensive restaurant-style glassware seemed to be getting etched faster, so I countered that by setting my dishwasher to use full-power spray in the bottom rack, and gentle spray for the top rack when glassware is aboard. That seems to have nipped the problem in the bud.

I can't imagine etching would be a problem---even with a longer 'normal' cycle---if I used the tiny amount of detergent recommended for soft water in my owner's manual.
 
Detergent

I used to measure out the powdered detergent at 1.5 tablespoons per load with a half tablespoon in the prewash compartment in the program chosen utilized it.  That was until the measuring shotglass rolled out of the cabinet under the sink, fell the 3.5 inches to the floor and shattered into a thousand micro-pieces.

 

Now I just pour a guess and go.

 

Malcolm
 
I used to be a little heavy handed, too, when I used powders and sometimes Cascade Complete liguid, Eugene. Most times now I just use tablets or packets.

That's the bad thing about them, you have no control over the amount. It does seem as if the cheaper glasses do etch faster. I don't own any leaded crystal, but my mom did and she never had an etching problem with it in the dishwasher and that was with softened water. I guess that finer glassware must have a higher content of metallic ions in the matrix.

That's cool that you can adjust the water pressure in the lower and upper racks independently!
 
I can't believe how "cool" the wash temps are on new dishwashers. This higher end kitchenaid wash temp is 104F (40C)!  The high temp wash option raises the wash temp to a tepid 120F(49C). The Sani Rinse option raises the wash temp to 130F(54C), and the Final Rinse from 140F(60C) to 155F(68C).

 

So does washing for an extended period of time at 104F clean off things like grease, cheese, and starches? My Bosch Regular cycle washes at 140F, and the Power Scrub cycle at 160F - with a heated pre-rinse. The rinses are 156F.

 

See pages 8 and 9 of the manual:

http://www.kitchenaid.com/assets/pdfs/product/ZUSECARE/KUDE60HXSS_Use and Care_EN.pdf
 
I read that, too.

Yes, they wash in pretty cool water! 120F for a High Temp wash. Our Bosch normally washes at 131 to 149F on the autoRegular cycle or 149 to 167F on autoHeavy, each time with a 104F pre-wash. ECO cycle washes at 120F with a cold pre-rinse. Final rinse is always at 158F. I think US manufacturers are trying to take this energy-efficiency a little too far in some cases.
 
With all of this thought on 3 hr dishwashers--hell I will just wash the dishes by hand and save some time.At that point would not mind it.And I can't keep really dirty dishes in my dishwasher---the ants,roaches come marching in!that ATTRACTS the critters.If the load is that "foody" should be done right away so the critters don't get attracted to it.-Or washed by hand.There is a LOT of critters in my area.
 
I don't know about the current Miele models but the Normal cycle on my 2006 USA G2830  Laperla disables all the the sensors, soil and load size and the machine just follows a basic program, so it will wash one clean plate for 2 hours at a low temperature  if you put it in there. So  Normal on this  machine is not the cycle I ever use as there are better, shorter, and more water saving ones on it. 
 
Just!

Throw out the new and get a old Hobart built Kitchen Aid, preferably a KDS 15 -17, single wash arm, it will blast off burned on gunk from baking pans....in about 45 minutes! with about 12 gallons of water, to me water is cheaper than electricity!!
 
Hans: yes, water is cheaper than electricity, but hot water costs a bunch, even if it's not heated by electricity. And yes, I can afford to pay for the water and for making the water hot. The problem is that with more and more people needing water, sewage treatment plants, electricity, gas, fuel oil etc, no one (including me) wants any those utilities in their backyard/neighborhood, because despite the fact that having utilities increases the value of one's home(s), being too close to them devalues the homes. I'm often tempted when people say stuff like "high efficiency stuff don't make sense/pay for themselves" to tell them "thank you!, we've been trying to find places to put another utility building and we're so glad you don't mind them in your backyard"... but I can't keep a straight face (Toggles, sshh!!!) ;-)

Suppose keeping the "heated dry" on when I use my dishwasher increased my energy costs to one dollar per year, I don't care if it's more or less than that, just let's suppose that. If 30 million homes do that, it'll be 30 million dollars per year just to dry dishes. In the case one needs the dishes right away, it makes sense to turn it on for that cycle, but if you'll be dealing with the unloading the machine a couple of hours later (or, more commonly 8 hours later), it won't make any difference and we could all have used that money for something else -- schools, retirement, not having pollution around our homes. And that's small stuff compared to so much stuff we waste, as opposed to use. I'm the first person to turn on the A/C when I'm home, but I'm then using it instead of wasting it like so many business buildings that run the A/C 24/7 instead of modulating for when more people are there and need it. Or the buildings that keep all lights on all night with no one but security inside. WTF?

My point is, just because I can afford to waste it doesn't mean it's in my best interest to waste or that I should make people who can't afford to move get stuck with annoying utility plants in their neighborhood so I can waste. Using, yes sure, wasting it's kinda dumb, it will come back to bite us in the butt sooner or later.

Just in case it's not clear, I'm with you on the cleaning part -- any dishwasher I want to buy needs to be very good at cleaning (there are no perfect machines at that, no matter how much people insist there are). But I've used machines that were miserly with water and took about one hour per cycle, and machines that used lots of water and time and didn't clean as well. The engineering is important here, not how much time/water it uses.

Also, there are machines that take 2 hours or so to finish the cycle and are a joy to use -- particularly during Thanksgiving, you can start the machine as things go, and they clean so well and are so quiet that even the guests don't notice you are running the d/w while you cook and/or the guests are right there. You finish much sooner than if you had a machine that ran just 30 minutes per cycle but didn't clean well, so now you need to do pots and pans by hand or rewash them before and/or after they are run thru the d/w. And then there are the machines that are so loud that you need to wait for every guest to leave and now you're running 3-4 cycles in the evening, even if the cycles lasted just 20-30 minutes each, it'd be annoying both in all the work and the mess accumulating during the day robbing you of room in the kitchen, but also all that noise. Yuck, thank you but no thanks.
 
Jerrod, my impression is that lots of machines with sensors in them turn off the sensors when too little dirt is sensed, so they can run a cleaning cycle with those "dishwasher cleaning" products. I've also noticed that some brands of dishwashers run such a short cycle when dishes are pre-rinsed or not dirty enough that stuff is still left behind but when one loads them up with a large and/or very dirty load with stuck-on food it all comes out very clean. It's a bit weird to me. Maybe it's a bug?
 
Sigh--with all of these dishwashers that take even LONGER to do dishes-at this stage won't mind if a power plant or water plant is built near my house(Come to think of it a small water pumping-processing plant and tower is not far from my place)I will still stick with that these newer machines aren't worth it-as some others point out-they will be in the dump before their payback time-could take YEARS!!Will the machine last that long?and the HIGH purchase prices-will look for dishwashers at the swap shop, thank you.for power plants these are usually located by a large body of water and a large RR siding-for cooling and transport of fuel and gen-turbine parts-some of those are too big and heavy to ship by truck.
 
My 2006 Dw can do loads using 4 gallons of water and complete the load in under 2 hours but perhaps not when using 294kwh,but I am getting a bit sick of this Energy Star mess especially since it is the manufactures that are getting tax breaks by complying.  Doesn't matter about the public, performance or flexibility just all about them and profits.  At some point Energy Star needs to be put out to pasture.

 

 

 

 
 
One thing I did recently in fact was reprogram my Miele LaPerla dishwasher. If one has such a machine like moi here is what you do...with the machine off touch the clear button then turn the power on pad. Touch the clear button 5 times and hold it on the 5th time until you see the Technical screen pop up. From there one can adjust water usage as in Water Plus it will add 16 oz more water per fill if you select increase. Then one can adjust water temp in the wash and rinse cycles. Also shorten cycles if you need to. Then you can change country settings. Talk about wild I changed it to Austrailia and the cycles were very different, SEU meaning Southern Europe changes parameters as well. I went back to USA setting and I lost the soak setting for the Normal cycle.
Now to keep the settings hit power pad to turn off.
To get into the service area hold the clear pad again with the machine off and touch the power pad on. now release the clear pad and touch it 3 times and hold it on the 3rd time and that will get you into the Service settings. You can see how many hours your dishwasher has logged in so far. Mine is at 3150 hours. Plus it will also show you faults. Very awesome machine! Oh and before I forget...you can add another rinse cycle to each cycle.
 
Dishwashers giving off excess heat

I have often wondered why the manufacturers don't make their appliances more heat efficient - by encasing the external surfaces of the wash tank in polystyrene-type fireproof insulation - like the copper cylinders used for hot water storage.

This would keep the heat in, thus reducing electricity consumption. It would also keep the kitchen cool. And reduce noise even further.

The heat exchanger/water matrix could have a specially moulded polystyrene side cover to keep the water at maximum temperature.

The circulation pump could also have a heat exchanger sleeve, to capture the heat given off by the main motor.

I don't know why manufacturers don't think of such things.
 
energy star

Energy Star ratings, I don't think, really look at the whole picture.

Once again let's look at the rinsing before washing issue. Take a pre-tall tub Whirlpool that could gobble up just about anything you put in it, versus one of today's, poor excuse for a dishwasher, machines without a built-in food waste disposer.

The water required to rinse off dishes and grind the waste in the disposer is probably several times the water used by the dishwasher itself.

The government Energy Star evaluators, as well as Consumer Reports seem to be totally blind to this fact. As I have said before, in my opinion a dishwasher that cannot dispose of food waste is not a dishwasher, but only a machine that splashes water on dishes.

It seems to me that the Energy Star ratings given to machines without a built-in disposer are somewhat inaccurate and are not looking at the big picture. They give the impression that these filtered machines are performing on par, energy wise, with those that have built in food waste disposal systems.

Does anyone agree with me on this??

As mentioned my daily driver is a GE GSD2800. It disposes of noodles, peas, lettuce, baked beans, etc. No it can't handle bones, are very large pieces of waste, but 90 percent + of the time, I don't have to rinse anything. That's a big savings on water for rinsing and for water and electricity for the garbage disposal.

While we are on the discussion of rinsing, are any one you concerned about some of the machines that only have one final rinse and sometimes a small purge before the final rinse.

I worry about the chemical residue left on the dishes, from the detergents with only one rinse.

The GSD2800 has two final rinses, my other tower wash GE's have three final rinses. Even with the 2800 I sometimes notice a little detergent aroma left on the dishes, on the other GE's with the three rinses, rarely.

Do any of you who have a machine with a single final rinse have any noticeable detergent residue or odor from the detergents. Just curious. (Of course, if you use rinse-agent, which I do not, this would probably be what you are noticing.)

If there is an odor, then yes, that would seem to be an indicator of chemical residue remaining on the dishes.
 

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