ASKO: Meet The 3 hour + 25 minute Dishwasher Cycle
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Something manufacturers don't seem to take into consideration is the water cooling in the pipes during these long cycles. I first noticed this insanity in the KDSS 21 and 22 I had. Both filled, then stopped, before circulating any water, to heat the water to spray on cold dishes. While the first wash was happening, the water was cooling in the pipes before the next fill. After the first wash drained, the load was not that warm because the heat from the 140F water was pulled out of it by the room temperature tank and dishes. The next fill was not all that hot because the water had been sitting and cooling in the pipes for some time. This must be terrible in places where the pipes run through the cement slab so that the water cools as soon as it is shut off. All of the delays while the machine is slowly heating water or taking long enough to wash each piece in the load individually means that water is sitting in the pipes cooling. If there is a temperature sensor, it means that you are going to be paying to heat water electrically even if you have a gas water heater and since most, if not all, domestic dishwashers operate on 115 volts, the water heating is very slow. Of course, they are trying to move us away from washing dishes in hot water so it will soon be a moot point.
I remember a Bradford portable dishwasher on display near the cash registers at our Grants. The lid had a big poster standing up touting "3 STAGE WASHING" so I started reading. I thought it might have to do with multiple wash arms or something. No. Apparently, the machine did not have a detergent dispenser so it filled and started washing. The first stage was at some low temperature range where heat sensitive proteins were washed off the dishes. As the heating element kept heating the water, the second stage started at maybe 120-125F and this was where starches were washed off dishes after sitting there patiently and holding their tickets while the proteins were being wisked away. The third stage was around 140F where grease was washed away. Now this had to take a while. I remember the Westinghouse roll outs with the guaranteed 140F wash with timer delay during heating and the cycle could easily take 90 minutes back in the 1950s. I guess washing that long and getting the wash water that hot, they had to clean things. I think it was a late 50s Consumers Research report on dishwashers where they measured the temperature of the water draining out after each phase of the cycle and the water was amazingly low, like 120F or less after the wash in most of the machines. The dishes were hot by the end of the dry cycle, but they were not washed at anywhere near 140F.
I remember a Bradford portable dishwasher on display near the cash registers at our Grants. The lid had a big poster standing up touting "3 STAGE WASHING" so I started reading. I thought it might have to do with multiple wash arms or something. No. Apparently, the machine did not have a detergent dispenser so it filled and started washing. The first stage was at some low temperature range where heat sensitive proteins were washed off the dishes. As the heating element kept heating the water, the second stage started at maybe 120-125F and this was where starches were washed off dishes after sitting there patiently and holding their tickets while the proteins were being wisked away. The third stage was around 140F where grease was washed away. Now this had to take a while. I remember the Westinghouse roll outs with the guaranteed 140F wash with timer delay during heating and the cycle could easily take 90 minutes back in the 1950s. I guess washing that long and getting the wash water that hot, they had to clean things. I think it was a late 50s Consumers Research report on dishwashers where they measured the temperature of the water draining out after each phase of the cycle and the water was amazingly low, like 120F or less after the wash in most of the machines. The dishes were hot by the end of the dry cycle, but they were not washed at anywhere near 140F.
steved
Well-known member
Good point Tom
I have a Frigidaire Gallery tall tub (so shoot me lol) that washes really well since I ran a seperate PVC water line direct from the water heater. The water doesn't cool off as fast with the PVC. It seemed to me that every fill cycle only emptied the standing water from the pipe, not drawing it from the tank.
I did this and in addition, I later upgraded the lower wash arm to the three-way one, and the top sprayer to the small wash arm style.
I have a Frigidaire Gallery tall tub (so shoot me lol) that washes really well since I ran a seperate PVC water line direct from the water heater. The water doesn't cool off as fast with the PVC. It seemed to me that every fill cycle only emptied the standing water from the pipe, not drawing it from the tank.
I did this and in addition, I later upgraded the lower wash arm to the three-way one, and the top sprayer to the small wash arm style.
Yes, the water definitely cools in the pipes between water changes on new dishwashers with long cycles. However, remember that many of these machines fill with only a tad over a gallon of water. It heats very quickly. I believe that's true of machines that do alternate rack washing (like my LG and the Frigidaire I had around 2005), at any rate.
The LG heats water very quickly. Choosing the 160 degree final rinse option adds under 10 minutes to the cycle. My previous dishwasher, a TOL Maytag, circa 2007, didn't alternate washing between racks, so there was much more water in the machine to heat. Choosing the Sani Rinse option added about 20 minutes to a cycle.
The LG heats water very quickly. Choosing the 160 degree final rinse option adds under 10 minutes to the cycle. My previous dishwasher, a TOL Maytag, circa 2007, didn't alternate washing between racks, so there was much more water in the machine to heat. Choosing the Sani Rinse option added about 20 minutes to a cycle.
My water runs through pipeis located in the concrete foundation so it cools off fairly quickly, even in the summer. So the Kenmore Elite TT does run a minimum of an hour and 48 minutes, heated dry, on the lightest soil sensing programme.
crappy new machines
I agree with John.
Under no circumstance would I throw money away on some of these
inferior new machines. When entertaining, I often do 2 or 3 loads in one evening to get all the dishes and pots and pans done. I use a GE GSD2800 as the daily driver. Without the dry cycle it's about 45 minutes and most of the time things are spotless with no pre-rinsing. As far as the noise, It's not that loud, it doesn't interfere with conversation in the kitchen and I'm actually kind of proud of having a dishwasher and want people to hear it running.
I agree with John.
Under no circumstance would I throw money away on some of these
inferior new machines. When entertaining, I often do 2 or 3 loads in one evening to get all the dishes and pots and pans done. I use a GE GSD2800 as the daily driver. Without the dry cycle it's about 45 minutes and most of the time things are spotless with no pre-rinsing. As far as the noise, It's not that loud, it doesn't interfere with conversation in the kitchen and I'm actually kind of proud of having a dishwasher and want people to hear it running.
Let's watch the sweeping generalizations: Not all new dishwashers are "crappy". My LG is by far the best dishwasher I've ever owned. It cleans pots/pans better than any of my previous dishwashers (mid '70s' Kenmore, mid-80's KitchenAid, late 80's Whirlpool, late 80's GE, 90's KitchenAid, early 00 KitchenAid, mid00 Frigidaire, mid 00 Maytag).
The loading flexibility is amazing, and the ultra tall tub allows me to wash tall pots that wouldn't fit in the aforementioned machines.
Yes, the cycle time is longer than vintage machines, but I wash many loads in succession and haven't had problems adjusting to a cycle that's longer than 60 minutes.
It is super-quiet, and is very water and energy efficient. It has a steam feature and 160 degree final rinse options. I wouldn't trade it for any other dishwasher, vintage or new.
It is not a crappy dishwasher.
The loading flexibility is amazing, and the ultra tall tub allows me to wash tall pots that wouldn't fit in the aforementioned machines.
Yes, the cycle time is longer than vintage machines, but I wash many loads in succession and haven't had problems adjusting to a cycle that's longer than 60 minutes.
It is super-quiet, and is very water and energy efficient. It has a steam feature and 160 degree final rinse options. I wouldn't trade it for any other dishwasher, vintage or new.
It is not a crappy dishwasher.
crappy new dishwashers
No one said ALL new dishwashers are "crappy". You will not see the word "all" or any sweeping generalizations in my post if you go back and re-read.
I am speaking of the ones that are "crappy" I never once said all were.
What composes a crappy dishwasher(in my opinion).
One that takes 3 hours to do a load that can be done in 45 minutes by a competent machine.
One that cannot dispose of food wastes and requires pre-rinsing or extensive scraping. In my opinion any machine that uses a non-self cleaning filter is an inferior machine. If dishes are not rinsed or meticulously scraped then food wastes collect in the filter and every drop of wash and rinse water is being filtered through garbage.
If someone wants to pay $1000+ for a machine that washes nnd rinses your dishes in garbage water can go ahead and do it.
Any machine that cannot dispose of normal solid food waste residue is not a dishwasher but just a machine that splashes water on dishes.
No one said ALL new dishwashers are "crappy". You will not see the word "all" or any sweeping generalizations in my post if you go back and re-read.
I am speaking of the ones that are "crappy" I never once said all were.
What composes a crappy dishwasher(in my opinion).
One that takes 3 hours to do a load that can be done in 45 minutes by a competent machine.
One that cannot dispose of food wastes and requires pre-rinsing or extensive scraping. In my opinion any machine that uses a non-self cleaning filter is an inferior machine. If dishes are not rinsed or meticulously scraped then food wastes collect in the filter and every drop of wash and rinse water is being filtered through garbage.
If someone wants to pay $1000+ for a machine that washes nnd rinses your dishes in garbage water can go ahead and do it.
Any machine that cannot dispose of normal solid food waste residue is not a dishwasher but just a machine that splashes water on dishes.
You are most correct; my apologies! I missed the word 'some' in your post, Barry. And there are certainly some poor performers on the current market, just as there were poor performers in the 1950's, 1960's, 1970's...
HEATING WATER IN NEW DWs
Yes there is about 1/2 as much water to heat but the heater elements have been reduced in wattage in most cases to 400 or 500 hundred watts at best. There is just no reason to have a DW running more than an hour. Having a hot machine in the kitchen that long only increases your air-conditioning costs and I am sure that is not taken into account in the energy stickers.
Eugene it is always good to hear that people are enjoying thier appliances and getting good use out of them. This is what my whole professional life has been devoted to and based on your recommendation I will take a second look at LG DWs. Both LG and Samung major appliances got off to such a bad start in this country, much like the first Hyundai automobiles did, but I always figured that they might get better in time. I see the LG DWs on the scrap pile almost every week and it is basically a copy of the WP KA tall tub machines. I will have to pick up a few of them some time and take them back to the shop and see what makes them tick, but I am sure that I would never put one in my kitchen. I have already had a TOL KA TT machine and a TL GE TT DW and just bending down the extra 2" to load the lower rack was enough to kill the design for me.
There is just no reason what so ever that dishwashers need to take so long. It could actually use less energy and water to put a decent sized pump in and a 240 volt heater and get the job done in less than 30 minutes. Commercial machines have been doing this for years and they kill far more germs in the process. I feel that overall most new appliances have improved but some where along the way dishwashers have evolved in the wrong direction.
Yes there is about 1/2 as much water to heat but the heater elements have been reduced in wattage in most cases to 400 or 500 hundred watts at best. There is just no reason to have a DW running more than an hour. Having a hot machine in the kitchen that long only increases your air-conditioning costs and I am sure that is not taken into account in the energy stickers.
Eugene it is always good to hear that people are enjoying thier appliances and getting good use out of them. This is what my whole professional life has been devoted to and based on your recommendation I will take a second look at LG DWs. Both LG and Samung major appliances got off to such a bad start in this country, much like the first Hyundai automobiles did, but I always figured that they might get better in time. I see the LG DWs on the scrap pile almost every week and it is basically a copy of the WP KA tall tub machines. I will have to pick up a few of them some time and take them back to the shop and see what makes them tick, but I am sure that I would never put one in my kitchen. I have already had a TOL KA TT machine and a TL GE TT DW and just bending down the extra 2" to load the lower rack was enough to kill the design for me.
There is just no reason what so ever that dishwashers need to take so long. It could actually use less energy and water to put a decent sized pump in and a 240 volt heater and get the job done in less than 30 minutes. Commercial machines have been doing this for years and they kill far more germs in the process. I feel that overall most new appliances have improved but some where along the way dishwashers have evolved in the wrong direction.
John-- A caveat about LG dishwashers: Their frequency of repair rate is very high according to Consumer Reports. They are the least reliable of all the brands for which they have enough repair data from their readership. Their current TOL steam model (pretty much the same model I have) scores an 80 (only one Bosch model scored higher, at 81), so they do their job well.
The dishwasher in my house gets very heavy use day in and day out. The LG is almost three years old and so far, no problems; but at Consumer Reports, 23% of the people who responded to the questionnaire and have LG dishwashers, have had to have them repaired. That statistic does not exactly inspire confidence.
LG washing machines used to have a poor reliability record, but they have recently improved to where they are now listed as the most reliable. Hopefully LG will be able to make similar strides with their dishwashers.
The least repair-prone dishwasher brand on CR's list? Whirlpool, at only 8% needing repairs.
The dishwasher in my house gets very heavy use day in and day out. The LG is almost three years old and so far, no problems; but at Consumer Reports, 23% of the people who responded to the questionnaire and have LG dishwashers, have had to have them repaired. That statistic does not exactly inspire confidence.
LG washing machines used to have a poor reliability record, but they have recently improved to where they are now listed as the most reliable. Hopefully LG will be able to make similar strides with their dishwashers.
The least repair-prone dishwasher brand on CR's list? Whirlpool, at only 8% needing repairs.
joe_in_philly
Well-known member
My 6 year old, middle of the line Bosch does an excellent job. The regular cycle gets dishes that have not been pre-rinsed completely clean, even if they have been sitting for days. It does have a manual clean filter, but the only things I have found in it are toothpicks and twist ties - things that must have snuck into the dishwasher stuck on the bottom of something. I only need to check it a few times a year. I wouldn't let a manual clean filter scare you away from a dishwasher. I like that the Bosch heats the wash and rinse water to a set temp, which is probably why I get such consistent results. In the summer, a regular cycle takes around 99 minutes, and in the winter about 10 minutes longer.
passatdoc
Well-known member
my 2001 Bosch....
...does not have a sensor to reduce wash time. Normal cycle runs about 1:50. PowerScrubPlus cycle runs about 2:15. Normal cycle suffices for all but the most heavily encrusted loads, and rinsing is never required (only scraping is needed). Results are superior as long as proper cycle is selected. There is also a Quick Wash 0:30 cycle, which is ok for very lightly soiled loads (example: having people over for coffee and cookies) but not enough for baked on residue or dried food on dishes.
...does not have a sensor to reduce wash time. Normal cycle runs about 1:50. PowerScrubPlus cycle runs about 2:15. Normal cycle suffices for all but the most heavily encrusted loads, and rinsing is never required (only scraping is needed). Results are superior as long as proper cycle is selected. There is also a Quick Wash 0:30 cycle, which is ok for very lightly soiled loads (example: having people over for coffee and cookies) but not enough for baked on residue or dried food on dishes.
To work aroudn water in the pipes cooling, there is much to be said to puting a small electric hot-water heater under the sink say of a two gallons (7.56 +/- litres) capacity to produce hot water for the DW.
Nothing wrong with a wall or cabinet switch to shut it off when DW is not being used.
www.google.com
Nothing wrong with a wall or cabinet switch to shut it off when DW is not being used.
- Google Shopping
www.google.com
I don't know about American dishwashers, but modern European dishwashers are very well insulated. Even my 15 year old freestanding AEG hardly heats up on the outside. It's a bit warmer than room temperature at best.
matthewza
Well-known member
LG
our LG takes 2 hr 25 min on eco (we dont use that cycle often), 34 min on quick (we use that quite alot) but most of the time we use the auto cycle that uses all its sensors to determine the perfect cycle time and its always different and includes 30 mins for drying. the eco cycle also has a 30 min dry time but no dry on the quick
our LG takes 2 hr 25 min on eco (we dont use that cycle often), 34 min on quick (we use that quite alot) but most of the time we use the auto cycle that uses all its sensors to determine the perfect cycle time and its always different and includes 30 mins for drying. the eco cycle also has a 30 min dry time but no dry on the quick
long cycles and etching
Have any of you, with the newer machines and soft water, experienced etching of glassware due to the extended cycles of some of these machines?
From what I understand, a DW detergent's propensity to pull metal ions (etching) out of glasses increases with time and temperature (but does not readily occur in harder water). With some of these machines recirculating wash water for an hour and a half + over dishes, would seem to increase the etching or cloudiness of glasses that occurs over time.
In a related aside, did any of you notice that Consumer Reports last test of DW detergents did not include etching tendancies of DW detergents. This was strange as this was always one of their primary concerns and an important rating factor in the past.
I found Quantum to be the worst for etching glasses from my experience. Never had a problem with Cascade Complete packets, though. When I lived in Ohio I had softened water (0 grains hardness).
Now that I moved to Tennessee I have mildly hard water (approx. 10 grains) and have no etching with any detergents (so far).
In a softwater situation, I just can't imagine the etching that must be occuring to glassware in some of these machines with long cycles.
Have any of you, with the newer machines and soft water, experienced etching of glassware due to the extended cycles of some of these machines?
From what I understand, a DW detergent's propensity to pull metal ions (etching) out of glasses increases with time and temperature (but does not readily occur in harder water). With some of these machines recirculating wash water for an hour and a half + over dishes, would seem to increase the etching or cloudiness of glasses that occurs over time.
In a related aside, did any of you notice that Consumer Reports last test of DW detergents did not include etching tendancies of DW detergents. This was strange as this was always one of their primary concerns and an important rating factor in the past.
I found Quantum to be the worst for etching glasses from my experience. Never had a problem with Cascade Complete packets, though. When I lived in Ohio I had softened water (0 grains hardness).
Now that I moved to Tennessee I have mildly hard water (approx. 10 grains) and have no etching with any detergents (so far).
In a softwater situation, I just can't imagine the etching that must be occuring to glassware in some of these machines with long cycles.
I haven't found etching to be a particular problem in our Bosch with softener. Of course, too much detergent or washing delicate glasses on the 167F cycle won't do them any favor...
passatdoc
Well-known member
My Bosch DW is not hot to the touch (has a white metal panel----no wood panel to match cabinets) but is noticeably warm. It is so quiet that sometimes the only way to know it's running is to touch the front door panel. If PowerScrubPlus cycle (160 F or 80 C final rinse) is used, the DW also heats the countertop above it (slightly warm) a bit.
Bosch DWs vary in the amount of insulation used, mainly in an effort to reduce noise rather than heat transfer. I have a base model that runs at 52 decibels which is sufficiently quiet to me. Some of the high end models run at about 43-45 decibels. Decibels use a logarithmic scale, and 10 raised to the 0.7 power (52-45=7) is about 5.0, so if those decibel ratings are accurate, the lower end models are five times noisier than the high end models.....but the noise level on my DW is so much lower than the GE it replaced that I barely notice it.
I would imagine that the extra insulation around the sides of the higher end DW would also impede heat transfer, but I don't know if door construction is upgraded in the high end models so as to impede heat. Bosch DWs in the USA are made at a US plant, supposedly to German specifications. It's possible that the design is dumbed down for American consumers who are so impressed with the machine's overall performance that they don't notice minor issues like heat transfer through a door due to less insulation than in Europe.
Bosch DWs vary in the amount of insulation used, mainly in an effort to reduce noise rather than heat transfer. I have a base model that runs at 52 decibels which is sufficiently quiet to me. Some of the high end models run at about 43-45 decibels. Decibels use a logarithmic scale, and 10 raised to the 0.7 power (52-45=7) is about 5.0, so if those decibel ratings are accurate, the lower end models are five times noisier than the high end models.....but the noise level on my DW is so much lower than the GE it replaced that I barely notice it.
I would imagine that the extra insulation around the sides of the higher end DW would also impede heat transfer, but I don't know if door construction is upgraded in the high end models so as to impede heat. Bosch DWs in the USA are made at a US plant, supposedly to German specifications. It's possible that the design is dumbed down for American consumers who are so impressed with the machine's overall performance that they don't notice minor issues like heat transfer through a door due to less insulation than in Europe.
