California Electricity Dilemma

[sarahperdue]

Grid concerns

I'm nowhere near California, but I agree that the news we get suggests a hazardous grid responsible for fires and unlikely to be able to handle increased demand.

My concern about a politically motivated decisions is that such decisions often fail to create infrastructure to back them up.

@john, I'd love to move, but my roots are planted so deeply in Alabama that I'm stuck here. Even if I wanted to chuck it all and move, Bruce would never move with me.

Sarah

 

[combo52]

Electric vehicles

Are just so many more times efficient than gasoline diesel etc. this is what’s going to push the sales of electric vehicles for the next 20 years.

The grid problems will figure themselves out politicians will never get away with the young people without electricity.

As I said before I do question a switch in the colder climates away from natural gas this country is going to continue to burn a lot of natural gas for the next 50 years it’s supposed efficient to burn it directly in homes fueling furnaces and clothes dryers are the two stand out items.

Gas stoves don’t really make any difference but they’re not very efficient anyway, and heat pump water heaters are very effective in the coldest places with the coldest water they have no trouble keeping up.

John

 

[combo52]

Reply number 14

Electric cars excel in stop and go traffic compared to fuel vehicles, that has a little to do with the reason they’re not selling well in New York probably etc.

It may be an issue with not enough charging facilities or something.

John

 

[Chetlaham]

California Isn't Ready

@sarahperdue: Unless California builds 20,000+ MWs of new generating capacity, with actual spinning turbines, the shortcoming will come knocking. And since California isn't likely to build modern nuclear facilities, blackouts will compel the construction of natural gas fired generation.

Which all ends up being worse for the environment as 2/3 of gas burned in utility owned generating stations is rejected as heat.

At that point (in the inevitable) future California would have been better off compelling co-generation and central micro grids- where heat can be reclaimed for heating and cooling in buildings achieving efficiencies of over 95%.

But nope, California doesn't want the public to have access to natural gas.

@john: You never, ever let problems figure themselves out, because they simply don't. Politicians, old people, and especially young people have no clue where they're power comes from, how any of it actually works, or where to find said information. Information which is voluminous as much as it is scattered and lacking. Up until the Texas outage most people had never heard of ERCOT and to this day some believe ERCOT owns and engineers the Texas interconnection. People have no clue.

It won't be until California begins experiencing major blackouts that anyone in begins to consider a problem may actually exist. I say may, because then you'll have talking heads who will deny anything is wrong altogether...

Ignorance can be educated, stupid can be rehabilitated, arrogance is incorrigible.

 

[Chetlaham]

What California Needs

Is these already pretty beauties, but even more modern! >>>

 

[robbinsandmyers]

Reply #21

Although NY pales compared to CA for the amount of charging stations in the state it has 3 times more than UT but UT sells more EV than NY. I think there has to be a valid reason for that because NY people are very trendy and love their toys/brands. The only article I could find about EV and traffic jams was from the UK and they simulated one and had a pretty good demand on the battery and it only lost 2%. Maybe its the price or lack of dealer network.

Which States Have the Most Chargers Per Electric Vehicle?

Here’s a tool, using data from the U.S. Department of Energy, showing which states have the most electric vehicle charging stations and chargers — as well as how that stacks up with the number of EVs in that state.

www.govtech.com

 

[good-shepherd]

people have no clue where their power comes from

Electricity comes out the wall, everybody knows that..

 

[qsd-dan]

Electricity comes out the wall, everybody knows that..

 

[lowefficiency]

>> Although NY pales compared to CA for the amount of charging stations in the state it has 3 times more than UT but UT sells more EV than NY.
>> I think there has to be a valid reason for that because NY people are very trendy and love their toys/brands.

This is because the majority of EV charging happens in the home.

Charging stations therefore have historically been placed at key points (and at specific maximum distances) to enable cross-country travel, and at destinations likely to be endpoints for tourists. This is why there are so many stations (statistically) that are in low-population areas, while comparatively few (proportionally) in medium population areas.

High-density urban environments are different of course. Where greater portions of the population rely on street parking or parking ramps, "home charging" isn't an option. A good number of charging stations have been built inside cities to address these needs.

Though different, both of these use cases support and explain the UT/NY situation you've described.

 

[lowefficiency]

>> BMW i3 on a generator

Here's an article with the backstory on that photo:

Using diesel to charge EVs in the outback is greener than you think

A group of EV drivers test out using an EV charger powered by a diesel generator as a solution for outback roadhouses, and the results are promising.

thedriven.io

 

[lowefficiency]

>> It won't be until California begins experiencing major blackouts that anyone in begins to consider a problem may actually exist.

Didn't we already hit that point, where the century-old hook wore through on the lines that started the wildfire in 2018? $16.5B seems like a big enough wake-up call to reevaluate aging infrastructure...

 

[mark_wpduet]

Picture it: You're in Cali. Driving an electric car during a heat wave...News all over is saying to use as little electricity as possible to prevent power failure...but you need to charge your car...

 

[combo52]

Reply number 30

Hi Mark, picture it gasoline prices over five dollars a gallon long lines at the gas station because gasoline sales are being restricted and you can only buy it on even odd days etc.

Instead you just drive home plug in your car and fill up your cars charge for the equivalent of about $ 1.50 a gallon.

Neither one of these scenarios are all that likely an any type of propulsion has its problems.

John

 

[mark_wpduet]

Wait what? I'm talking about a scenario where the power companies are asking people to conserve and use as little electricity as possible. Turn T stats up...Don't cook...etc... but you can plug in your electric car?

 

[Chetlaham]

@GSD-Dan: You might be joking, however that picture will become the inevitable norm... which also (ironically) happens to be half the answer until nuclear energy becomes more common.

I'll explain below-

 

[Chetlaham]

Co-Generation

@lowefficiency: Re-evaluate? More like rebuild. 100 years of deferred maintenance and upgrades have finally caught up to PG&E resulting in lawsuits and criminal charges where cutting power is now actually cheaper than spending hundreds of billions over the coming decades.

On top of that add all electric homes and the retirement of generating stations like San Onofre resulting in weekly power cuts; co-generation and community combined heat and power micro grids will become the norm.

For better or for worse, co-generation is actually the next best thing. Over 2/3 of the fuel that goes into an engine ends up as heat coming out of the radiator and tail pipe.

By reclaiming the heat for things like cooling, hot water, heating, steam, ect you can achieve efficiencies of 95% while reducing carbon output from fossil fuels by 2/3s.

A new or remodeled building can be fitted with one or more natural gas generators and one or more diesel generators for events like earth quakes. The electric output from the generators is used to charge cars, power appliances, lighting ect while the heat provides HVAC and potable hot water.

Because each home having its own generator becomes impractical, district power may become the norm where homes have a power connection along with 2 hot water lines and 2 cold water lines for HVAC- everything coming from a local plant and kept underground to prevent wild fires.

 

[jamiel]

I think people are forgetting the power smoothing ability of large numbers of electric vehicles. To rebut Mark's concern, let's take a 24h use case like you mention.

Middle of summer in California, I'll even stipulate a SIG alert (where they're actively trying to off-load electric use to off-peak times). I'll even stipulate no solar on the house.

If you're using an electric vehicle for commuting, you return home at the peak of the SIG alert (6 pm). Your vehicle has 60% charge left. The SIG alert goes until 8. A smarter grid will allow the house to pull power from the car while you're wanting to cool things down/cook dinner.

Rational electric car owners understand that charging takes place overnight (you plug in when you come home, but the charging happens at 0 dark 30). Your car, instead of charging from say 1am to 4 am charges from 12 mid to 5 am, letting you leave at 7 am with a 100% charged vehicle. You may or may not be able to charge at work given the SIG alert,

Pricing will allow travelers/transients to charge mid-day to continue their journey...

 

[robbinsandmyers]

All I know is Im good with the 750 miles my 22 year old Golf TDI gets if I top it off to the lip and charging issues arent one of lifes problems to me, and hopefully never will be.

 

[good-shepherd]

750 miles my 22 year old Golf TDI gets

And thats why the Feds killed availability of diesel passenger cars in the U.S.

(i.e. they went after Volkswagen with a vengeance for an infinitesimal emissions software issue).

Can't have affordable high MPG vehicles competing with their electric vehicle mandates and schemes.

 

[qsd-dan]

Remember the Toyota Eco Esprit concept car that exceeded 104 MPG using a highly efficient diesel engine way back in 2002? Pepperidge Farm remembers. I also remember a Toyota commercial about a diesel hybrid car with a reported 120 MPG about 15+ years ago that was "Coming Soon" which has been erased from the internet.