Can a KitchenAid (KDI16) be saved? Anyone?

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support :

too far gone??

i doubt it. i have 23 kitchenaids at this present time and out of all of them only 2 have even needed a new pump seal when i got them. one was an 18 model, one a 19. all the early ones, the 12, 14, 15-17 series didn't even leak and still don't.

sump rust can be a problem and i have had a couple that were starting to get to be a problem but again i cleaned it all out and coated them with rustoleum rusty metal primer followed by several coats of rustoleum paint and they are now as good as new.

without looking at it i cannot say for sure but i would guess your 16 model is in fine shape overall. like steve said don't use it till you replace that seal or you will ruin the motor most probably. but even then motors are out there, used and new.

pump gaskets are still available too, i bought 6 from larry in parma last year. he's at modern parts house. he has those seals as well.
 
I promise, pictures are coming!

The motor seems to be fine. Should it be oiled somewhere?

I felt better when I started to clean some of the parts up. There seems to not be any sump rust but a lot of mineral build up. Sam recommended CLR to remove it. There was also a LOT of crap in there, and that might have been why she was complaining of burning odors. The strainer at the bottom and the door handle were particularly cruddy. What I ended up doing was filling a pot up with a solution of new Cascade and water and heating it up on the stove. The chrome is so bright it almost blinded me! Be careful when using new Cascade to clean things like that, it dried and caused almost chemical burns to my hands. It must have more lye than the phosphated detergents. Right now I am cleaning up the outside and when I get the seal from Hobart I thought I would work on the crud inside but I don't want to do that until sealed. The wheels on the racks are shot but I think I can steal wheels when our Maytag dies.

Even though I pulled some wires I was able to put them back. It turns out Hobart neatly labels all the wires and terminals, I guess to make it easier to assemble? With some other brands, it was easy to get lost.
 
Little by Little

Bob, take the cleanup project in little steps. I would say that if there is little or no sump rust,especially around the motor and its mounting bolts, do not remove the motor at this time. Do try to get an extra set of gaskets for future use, though. You never know what you may encounter.
If your water is naturally soft or mechanically softened and you plan on using this machine as a daily driver, I would not recommend using any chemicals at all in it. The soft water will eventually and rather quickly with daily use wash away the lime buildup and leave a spotless interior.

Take it from someone who sees this everyday on commercial machines as well as thru personal experience.

IF the blower/heater assembly is making a burning smell, it may have a bad blower motor. Or it was simply the buildup of dust on the heater element that burned off when you turned it on. It should all go away assuming the blower itself is good.
I have plenty of blower assemblies so if you need one, let me know. That is one thing I always would take off a condemned machine. I am glad you were able to rewire the machine and yes, the wire markings sure make it easier to do.

Hope you will add some picture soon so we can see what youa re dealing with and the progress you make.
 
No needto, most of the time!

No, sorry, all those motors came with permanently lubricated bearings. So there would not be any place to add oil or grease to them. They will fail if enough water gets in to them so if the seal fails, it would be wise to replace it as soon as possible. The bearings can be replaced, but the problem with the 15 and up machines was getting the cooling fan off without breaking it. They are not available so if you break it, the motor is garbage. The top bearing goes on over the top of the motor shaft so you cannot get it off if the fan is stuck.
 
Thanks Steve. The KDS 20 I have stored in my garage has a fairly noisy motor. Since the bearings are permanently lubed, I don't think it stands much chance of ever making it into my kitchen. Believe it or not, the Thermador makes less noise.
 
Thinking and thinking!

Ralph, I have been thinking about your last statement and I think you might want to check your motor on the KDS20.. The later motors started coming with plastic cooling fans which were held in by a retaining clip. They had a tendency to break and get noisy especially at startup when the highest torque of the motor occurs. Then they would literally spin on the shaft and then catch up to the motor and quiet down a bit.

If you have one of these types, and the fan is intact, they come off rather easily and you can then install new bearings with little trouble, They are available at any place that sells bearings. The bearing numbers are stamped right on the bearings so you can easily identify them. If you need the numbers before hand let me know and I will get the info for you. I would go with the ones that have the rubber type seals and not the metal seal which could eventually allow water to get in again. So given the base bearing number, the transmission shop can cross reference it and get you one of better quality.
 
Will I took all the chrome parts off,...

And soaked them in a solution of Cascade and cooked it on the range; there was LOTS of crud. Used a lot of Windex and Pledge on the console. It is actually chrome underneath the brown paint! Now everything is so shiny that, even though this photo was taken in the evening it's almost blinding!

I noticed very little rust on the internal this machine and most of it was at the bottom toward the floor. The custom panel kit was a different matter - the frame fell apart and it is rusty and the wood is starting to rot so looks like I will paint the panels. More about them later. But it turns out there was crud everywhere. Maybe all it needed was a good clean up?

neptunebob++9-21-2010-00-27-36.jpg
 
Now for the parts layout.....

I unscrewed all I could to access the shaft seal and, uh, oh, oh, the motor fell out. Steve, now I know what you mean about the metal fan on top, but I think the fan kind of saved the motor from the leak. The shaft turns freely but there is a little rust on it.

Now there appears to be a pump housing, a rubber impeller, and the a lower housing. The shaft seal which I ordered from the Pittsburgh Hobart office I believe is the smaller round piece right below here.

Sam is soaking all this in like a CLR solution he used at his work.

neptunebob++9-21-2010-00-33-15.jpg
 
Parts are on order.

Reason I say parts is that "Barbara" the nice Hobart lady asked me how many I needed so I ordered 2, maybe to sell to one of us or on ebay. I guess some businesses have multiple machines? Anyway, not wanting to confuse anyone there about a KA machine I made up a story that I was a manager at a Cinnabon I used to work at that had a Hobart machine and I wsa trying to impress my boss because I didn't know if they would sell to a "regular consumer". I guess that when you are preservationist like we are, it helps to have a vivid imagination. Barbara asked me where this store was because I guess Hobart is fussy about which office services which area. Anyway, I can pick them up at the counter when they come in and if anyone here needs one, you can have it for my cost + postage.

Oh, and I am going to give them my resume too.
 
Parts is parts!

Okay Bob.. you went for the gusto!
Now that you have the whole pump disassembled, you might as well clean it all up. It will go together better and look nicer too.

The shaft seal is actually 2 pieces..the rubber drain impeller forms the rotating portion of it, therefore, the white ceramic piece on its underside and the stationary seal which is carbon and sits in the bottom of the pump housing that sits on top of the motor.
When you reassemble it, install the stationary part carefully into the bottom housing using liquid dish washing soap as a lubricant. DO NOT USE SILICONE SEALANT OR ANY PETROLEUM BASED PRODUCTS.
Use only finger pressure to seat it in to the housing. You will know when it has bottomed out and can check it by turning the housing over. There is a stop built into the housing.

If you want, you can probably get the fan off with gentle coaxing but first thoroughly soak the shaft with PB Blaster and let it do its work. Then gently pry the fan off the shaft. Try some really fine steel wool on that rust mark with the PB Blaster on it and it should shine right up for you.
If you get the fan off, there should be a small o ring left on the shaft which seals it. Either be really careful with it or get one from Barbara. The part number is 67500-30. The bearings for your motor are part number BB020-18 and they are both the same top and bottom.
The industry standard for them is N.D.77503
She can also get you the bearings.

If you send me your email, I will send you a pdf of the service manual which will outline all this stuff for you.
Make sure that you clean out the holes for the motor mounting screws and lubricate the screws with some never seize which will pay off in the future.
Let us know how it goes!
 
Does the fan need to come off at all? I was under the impression that we should not try to mess with it. The motor turns freely, so I think the bearings are fine. Might try to clean the outside of the motor.
 
Sounds cool to me!

If the bearings sound good, then perhaps you may want to leave it alone. If the fan does come off easily, why not clean up the shaft and put it back so it is easy in the future to remove if needed.
Can't wait till you get it going again.
Did you mention that you need rollers for the racks? I have loads of them you can have for the cost of postage!
 
since the whole pump assembly

is out, how does the tub sump area look? any rust around the holes that the lower pump bolts thru?

some of mine have been fine, others have needed work. a couple of mine were badly rusted around these holes.

on the one's that needed it i cleaned it up getting rid of the rust and painted the outer surafce of the tub sump area with rustoleum rusty metal primer, followed by rustoleum spray paint, about 3 coats each.

hopefully yours is fine.

if you need a new gasket for the lower pump larry in parma had them last year, i bought about half dozen and he had more. i think you can get them at parts select or repair clinic .com on the web too. hobart has them too i think, not sure. i seem to remember them there last year when i bought some stuff from hobart cinti.

keep at it! you will feel so good when it is all restored and running!
 
For the record...

The gaskets for the 15's would be available in limited numbers but they never carried the 16/17 gaskets as they were different from the commercial line. The commercial WM series did not have the constant rinse and therefore only had the circular gaskets not the one with the cut out for the upper spray supply.
 
Steve, thanks for the advice above about my KDS-20.

I think the machine will end up in the hands of Nate or Dan, so they can opt to do the bearing work if they choose.

I'm going to wait for a KDS-21 to come along, but will remain custodian of the KDS-20 until either party decides to take it off my hands.

Ralph
 
Too bad you are so far away

I would be willing to part with our KDS21M since my wife does nothing but complain about it. She just loved the 18 and wants it back in the kitchen. Will have to do that one of these days.
It is pimped out with the single lower arm like the current Hobart undercounter machines and man, does it toss dishes around!
Got to post the pics too, one of these days

Here is one from when I turned To0ploader55's KDS20 back into my KDS18. It is spotless inside . That was just traveling dirt!

stevet++9-22-2010-19-59-18.jpg
 
Well I have kept at it, I have questions, and pictures are c

I did pick up the seal assembly from Hobart and started to install it. Pictures are coming, but try to use your imagination for now as I have a question:

There are 2 seals in the kit, a drain impeller, and an O ring that goes on top of the rubber impeller. The thinner of the two seals appears to go in the bottom of the pump housing and the larger appears to fit at the bottom of the impeller. The 2 metal surfaces face and rub each other, creating the seal. Is this correct?

Reason I ask is that I notice the rubber impeller, it will be very difficult to get it onto the shaft of the motor, it only just goes on the top. Is it supposed to be this stubborn? I am afraid if I pounded it on there, if I did not do the seals right, I will never get this off. Also, the old impeller simply lifted off but I think it was just so worn I don't know how it ever turned. I did use the dishwashing liquid as a lube (Dawn with Olay beauty!). After this it is just a matter of screwing everything back together.

Oh and a tip: If you want the black plastic parts to look new, spray them with a lot of Pledge. My brother told me about Pledge because they used it for everything when he was in the Air Force. I did not know Pledge was used so much in the military. Anyone here in the service and use Pledge?
 
Check your email

Bob, I just sent you some instructions and pictures which should help you install the seal kit. Let me know if you need anything else.
 
Thanks, steve

It looks like I may have it in right with the 2 metal surfaces rubbing. Should the impeller be so stubborn and tight against the shaft? I am reluctant to pound on it, knowing I may never get it off again. But I'll try the soap again.

Once I finish this critical part I can get the motor back in the tub - As you probably know, the motor is Very Heavy. And get the machine - Who I call Kenni - into the game room where I plan to set up a counter and sink for when we have functions. I can assemble the rest then.
 
make life easy

The impeller is probably tight on the shaft due to the rust and corrosion seen in the picture above. If you get the rust off it should slide right down. That' is where that little o ring comes in and seals the shaft and impeller to prevent water from dripping down the shaft.

Is the machine installed in the counter yet? If not then you can install it thru the bottom like you took it out, but I have a trick for you to make it easy..
Here goes:

Get some 1/4-20 bolts about 1-1/2 to 2 inches long, cut off the heads and use them as pilot bolts for the motor so that you can lay the motor on the floor under the machine with the undertank gasket in place(don't use any sealer) and then use the threaded bolts minus the heads as pilot bolts to line the motor up and to pull the motor into position while you thread in the original bolts in the other holes. Then remove the pilot screws and insert the correct ones and finish putting all the parts back together.

You can also put in 3 or 4 pilot bolts and line it up under the machine and lift it with a wedge of wood or other implement.
I always used the pilots from the top down and then lifted the motor with one hand under it while kind of lifting up and laying on the floor at the same time. A little weird but works for me.Sure beats holding it up with your hand and trying to get it placed just right. if you go the top down road, you can get yourself some longer 1/4-20 bolts and keep the heads on them..makes gripping easier on your fingers!
Make sure that you put some lubricant on all the screws so that they can be removed more easily in the future.
You have my number if you need to call.
Steve
Don't forget to shim the impellers as per the service manual specs. If you don't wash pressure will not be what it should be.
 
But there's more!

Here are the parts I bought from Hobart. No, they don't know its going into a KitchenAid, I had to make up a story about a donut shoppe I used to work. Looks like even Hobart has gone to Mexico.

neptunebob++10-10-2010-13-37-3.jpg
 
Here's the parts as I understand them. I used dishwashing soap to lubricate - Actually Dawn with Olay Beauty, if anything would lubricate well, that would.

Actually, there is a little confusion here. The metal ring on the left actually goes into the "turbine" toward the right. The fact they put it in rubber confused me for a while but that must have been only to protect it. The O ring later goes on top of the turbine.

neptunebob++10-10-2010-13-39-11.jpg
 

Similar threads

L
KitchenAid KDS-18 Los Angeles
Replies
3
Views
358
phillymatt53
phillymatt53
combo52
Last Thursday delivery day was May tag day
Replies
1
Views
416
jmm63
jmm63
A
Trouble repairing GE Potscrubber 940 dishwasher
Replies
12
Views
1K
combo52
combo52
neptunebob
Do I save Walter or let him go?
Replies
2
Views
196
neptunebob
neptunebob
Z
Raytheon Speed Queen tub seal
Replies
4
Views
204
zenithtv
Z

Latest posts

Back
Top