Dishwasher film?

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support AutomaticWasher.org:

And You Know Bob . . .

Thermador/WK-U really wanted to make it difficult to load the bottom rack in anything but an orderly fashion. I'm getting better at outsmarting them. I should have snapped a picture but there will be many more opportunities now! The top rack is very crammable, complete with the optional extra tier on either side. It's the bottom rack that presents the challenge.

I'm using the "Short" cycle almost exclusively now. Dishes are done in about an hour, glassware sparkles and every last cup bottom is dry. I am so back in love with this machine!
 
Nice to hear you're back in Thermadore action!

I have had very good luck using Cascade with Dawn. Excellent results in the reverse rack Maytag as well as the KDS-19. Claims to have no phosphates, but by its performance, you'd swear it was loaded with them. Give it a try when all of the phosphate soap is off the market......coming soon.
 
Eating Crow...so far

Well...since phosphates are on the way out regardless of whether we like it or not (YAY! for the Chemistry Store!) I decided to go on a mini crusade to see if there really was such a thing as a dishwasher detergent without phosphates that could actually clean dishes. I've scoured the web looking for reviews, experiences, testimonials, the science of dishwashing, etc., etc. Mind you...I already made up my mind that no such thing really existed.

So...I come across a "blog" talking about this very subject...and it appeared to me to be more about hawking the product than anything. Basically, someone involved with the company was stating that their product was every bit as good as Cascade Complete in terms of cleaning...but that they were so small there was no way to compete...and no money for massive ad campaigns. They wanted people to try their product and they guaranteed excellent results. They would completely stand by their product if people would only try it. It is completely environmentally friendly, and contains no phosphates, and no chlorine. Don't know why this one suckered me in (I think because they seemed to be sincerely pleading their case)...but I decided to give it a try and thought I would write them a nice diatribe when it didn't work...which it surely wasn't going to. $12 and change for a 62 load box...plus shipping since I had to order it online.

I figured I was really going to put their claims to the test. So...I made Ziti. Made sure I got some noodles stuck to the pot and really boiled them good to get some nearly burnt-on starch. Then...used a glass dish to bake the Ziti...with nothing non-stick. Not only was some of the Ziti really stuck to the glass dish afterwords, I let it dry overnight! HA! Had a pan with some burnt-on pizza and one with some potato starch stuck to the bottom after boiling potatos. Plus...and the normal every day stuff we all face...stuck on eggs, dried stuff, etc.

Well...here's where I eat crow. EVERYTHING came sparkling clean in every load I washed. Even the pot with potato starch was crystal clean...and I have to admit that Cascade always left a "cloudy" residue where potato starch is involved after the first wash. Not this phosphate and chlorine free stuff. It washed everything perfectly spotless...including a frying pan with stuck on hamburger which I normally would have deglazed...but let just let it sit on the heat for my test so it would be nice and stuck on. I have to say, I simply cannot believe this detergent. I am dumbstruck. These people have something. However, I can see why they're not getting anywhere.

So...what's the product? It's called AlmaWin. Very hard to find. One of the reasons they're not getting anywhere is because you can't buy it directly from their site. And...I only found one of their links to buy that actually had the product...and this was an eBay store. Yikes! If you want to sell your product, you need to be sure the people you claim are selling it actually ARE selling it. If they had some better marketing, I don't really think they'd need a million dollar ad campaign to compete with the likes of P&G. If they could get enough people like me to just try the product, it would sell itself by old fashioned word of mouth.

If you're one of those people like I am who just feel there is no substitute for phosphates in dishwasher detergent, you have to try this product. You will be amazed at what it can do. It's a shame the product will probably not survive. One of those great products that comes along and can never get enough market share...then just disappears...even though the product is fantastic. I'm impressed with it...and I still cannot believe it actually works. Oh...and one other thing, all my glassware was just as spotless as with Cascade! Now that really surprised me, too, as I was definitely expecting spots on glassware. Not a single spot when held up to the sunlight.

So...will I give up phosphates for my dishes...for AlmaWin I might. For anything else I've come across so far, no! We'll see how long AlmaWin will be around.

srswirl++5-24-2010-08-35-41.jpg
 
The posting on Ebay says the product is made in Germany. Panthera, is this item readily found in stores in Germany, or mail order only?
 
Everyone....this product is available on www.brightgreenideas.com and is $4 cheaper per box, along with far, far cheaper shipping via FedEx. I got two boxed of it with 3 day FedEx shipping for $28. Far less than the eBay store wants at $48 for two boxes. They also have other AlmaWin products here, including the laundry detergent....PASS THE WORD AROUND!!
 
Actually, I have heard of it before, with similar accolades to what you expressed! So I just went online, searched, and ordered two boxes of it. I have bought from Bright Green Ideas before, and they're a reputable seller.

For the stuff I put in my dishwasher, it's worth a try! So far, only the Cascade Complete or Cascade with Dawn packs have provided the best results, but I like the idea that the AlmaWin can take care of heavy starch soils, which Cascade just doesn't do. Always leaves stains on stainless pots, and cleans other pots only marginally well. Glasses also seem to be hit or miss sometimes. I really like the idea that AlmaWin is supposed to work well with the lower water temps. Usually, I just select the hi temp option on all cycles, and that seems to provide the best results with Cascade.
 
Alma sounds like a Winner to me, but they do definitely have work at getting it onto supermarket shelves. If I were them, I'd be talking to Trader Joe's and other "progressive" type retailers. This stuff is right up their alley.

I'm still looking around for Hytron locally but so far have not found it at any of the restaurant or industrial supply stores I've checked.

For the time being, I'll just keep using the "Short" wash cycle and filling only one of the detergent cups in order to make my powdered Cascade + Dawn with phosphates last longer. I was at the store last week and spied a redesigned box of Cascade + Dawn that proudly proclaimed on the front that it's phosphate-free. Time to snap up the phosphated stuff when we find it on the shelves, everybody. Since they changed the packaging, a box of the good stuff will be easy to identify.
 
SRSwirl,

How's your water there? My second biggest issue (after basic cleaning) is hard water buildup on everything, which is especially visible on glasses and cutlery. I was having to add Lemishine to every load when I was using Cascade All-in-One Gelpacs but when I switched over to Finish Quantum Powerball I was able to ditch that. Now that the P-free versions are starting to get onto the shelves, I'm concerned again.
 
Moderately Hard Water

Mysteryclock:

We have moderately hard water in my community here in South Florida...about 3.5 to 4.0 grains of hardness. I've never had any buildup on dishes, but soap scum becomes like an iron coating on my shower tiles. Even products like CLR that claim to dissolve hard water buildup from calcium and iron don't really touch it. I found that it will come off with fine steel wool if you let the tiles dry completely. Then, I can get back down to the actual tile surface (kinda like sanding, LOL!). Since South Florida is basically an ancient dead reef, our water is practically made up of calcium, iron, and sulfur. I'm on a well for my sprinkler system...and all I can say is I am certainly very thankful I do not have to use the water that comes right from the ground! That stuff is like some kind of alien chemical cocktail! LOL!

The AlmaWin claims to have excellent water softening properties.

srswirl++5-24-2010-13-39-18.jpg
 
Ralph,

Email me privately using the email address in my profile. Maybe we can get you hooked up somehow. Hytron rules in our house. The only drawback about it is how it discolors aluminum items.
 
With the coming loss of phosphated dishwasher detergent, Fred and I cleared out the last of it at Target yesterday, this should last us about a year (hopefully).

unimatic1140++5-24-2010-22-29-18.jpg
 
Wow Robert, looks like you and Fred are all set. I have looked down here at the place I can with no luck. It all seems to be gone. Walmart had an area in the dishwasher detergent section that was marked clearance but it was empty. Have a feeling they moved all the old out. I am going to have to find a place that sells phosphates and mix my own!
 
I just saw some phosphated Cascade at Walgreens yesterday. That's where I got my current box, and it was even on sale to add to the satisfaction. It's not on sale anymore but think I better go back and stock up. I didn't realize that phosphates were going to go poof and disappear off the shelves completely.

Tim, I'll e-mail you if my efforts to find Hytron locally fail.

Thanks,

Ralph
 
Questions for SRSwirl

Michael,

Your test sounds interesting, and I think that I want to give the product a try. How much of the AlmaWin did you use in testing it - did you use one dispenser cup or two?

Also, how would you describe the fragrance of the product? Is is (over)perfumed?
 
film

I was having film issues also - so went to the chemical store online and bought some STPP. What is the recommended dosage in a dishwasher? I have also bought some Alma Win to try out.
 
How Much?

Darryl:

There is a scoop that comes in the box. It states one level scoop for hard water...so that is exactly what I used...no more. I put the majority of the scoop (at least 3/4) in the main detergent cup...and the rest in the pre-wash cup. By the way...I don't "believe" in using anything but HOT water to wash dishes...just like I wash clothes. I always select the Hi-Temp Wash and the Sani-Rinse on my Kitchen-Aid (Whirlpool) just like I use 150 degree F water to wash most of my clothes in my Bosch washer (and some get 170 degrees F). I will never wash anything in cold water...I don't care if they come out with something that washes with ice cubes.
 
Oh...and the fragrance...

Forgot to answer your second question Darryl. I'm not entirely sure how to describe the fragrance...it is a bit "citrus-y"...and reminds me of something from my childhood...but I can't place my finger on it...

Kinda like a very mild Spic-and-Span and "citrus-y" is the best thing I can come up with. The product does not leave a fragrance at all (at least as far as I can detect) after the diswasher is done. Not like Cascade Orange or Lemon...where you can smell it.
 
Recommended dosage for STPP

Most traditional phosphated dishwasher detergents have somewhere between 6 and 8 percent phosphates. What I would do is first determine the percentage of phosphates in the STPP and then mix with your dishwasher detergent accordingly to make it average 6 to 8 percent phosphates.

For example, if your STPP is 100 percent phosphates, to get 1 Tablespoon of dishwasher detergent with approx. 8 percent phosphates, you'd use 2-3/4 teaspoons non-phosphated dishwasher detergent and 1/4 teaspoon STPP.

In that scenario, that would make your recipe contain 1/12 phosphates, which would be 8.3 percent.
 
I was at the supermarket today. On the Finish box, I cannot see the contents shown. On the Cascade box, it does say that it has phosphates at 6.4% but nothing about chlorine.
I have been using Finish, adding my own phosphates, and also spraying in Chloralex bathroom cleaner with bleach. Has anyone checked Hytron mades by the Stearns Company?

Ross
 
Finish boxes now say, in tiny print on the back panel, that they're phosphate free. It's very hard to pick up. If the side panel doesn't say anything about phosphate, it's the new formulation.

With Cascade, they seem to say clearly on the front when it's non-phosphate; and most of the packaging is a lighter green than before, although this is not true of the "Complete" line.
 
I tried 1/4 cup 20 Mule Team Borax along with some Melaleuca "Diamond Brite" dw detergent last night, and no film whatsoever. I had a very greasy electric frypan from breakfast, along with other various items from the last several days, and I was very impressed by the results. Might be worth trying with Hytron when I have a greasy load.
 
Basic Chemistry, Again

Please be mindful that the 8% figure on the box of a phosphated dishwasher detergent refers only to the PHOSPHORUS content, which is different from the PHOSPHATE content.

I won't go into the atomic weights and molecular structures here, but 8% PHOSPHORUS content is equivalent to about 33% PHOSPHATE content when one is adding STPP as the complex phosphate source.

So, for a target of 8% phosphorus content, one should add 1 tsp of STPP to 2 tsp of non-phosphated dishwasher detergent.

However, if 1/4 tsp works for you, so much the better.
 
I live in a state that has banned phosphates in DW detergents starting June 2010 so I have been stocking up for a few months. Last month I tried Casecade Complete All-in-1 liquid non phosphate. It seems to work fine but leaves a scent in the DW that I don't like. After reading about Finish in this thread I bought 3-in-1 tabs non phosphate and used them yesterday. It worked fine in the sensor cycle but this one adjusts according to soil level. I am going to try them Friday in a cycle that uses lower temperatures and see what happens.

I wonder if the problem is made worse if you have hard water?
 
I am sure hard water is a factor. My sister lives in the part of L.A. with the hardest water due to an old DWP facility serving her area. She has had nothing but trouble with filming issues and even 86'd her KDS 18 because she thought it was the machine's fault. I'm still not over THAT. With a new Bosch she started having the same problem. Lemishine fixed it, but I have warned her about the disappearance of phosphates and to adjust her practices accordingly.
 

Similar threads

G
Kenmore Dishwasher Rant!
Replies
0
Views
597
gelaundry4ever
G
michaelz08
Comparing Available Powder Detergents
Replies
25
Views
1K
michaelz08
michaelz08
G
dishomat dreams and ideas
2 3 4
Replies
94
Views
2K
maytaga806
M
michaelz08
My thoughts on the Miele G7166
2
Replies
31
Views
1K
foraloysius
foraloysius
T
Miele Dishwasher Issues
Replies
26
Views
816
henene4
H

Latest posts

Back
Top