EPA Reversals

[johnb300m]

Naw. I’ll second what John is saying. I know I might be considered just a kid here, but I was a little kid in the late 80s. I remember relatives and friends having 70s and 80s appliances repaired ALL THE TIME! And then the grandparents would say “they don’t make em like they used to!”
And they’re referring to PowerCleans and and BD Whirlpools.
I will concede the older appliances were a bit easier to fix. But they were also like 5x more expensive so I think people were more willing to repair. But that’s the point. That ‘85 GE lasted 40yrs due to periodic repairs and maintenance.
My parents had our Newton Maytag 511 repaired probably a dozen times in my life.
But after a while it gets to be not worth it.

Yeah I’m driving two old KitchenAid DWs but they both needed rebuilding when I got them.

Heck, maybe we need tariffs and should go back to $3000 washers and dishwashers.
Repairs will be worth it again. Less throw away.
Start saving up!

 

[Chetlaham]

Appliances were more expensive because they had more raw material in them. If you take the cost of a $1,500 TC Speed Queen which has comparable build quality to a vintage washer and adjust for the cost of inflation it would be $508 in 1985. $508 is about what an average 2 speed 5 cycle extra large capacity washer would cost in 1985. I say about because yes you will find + or - 50 dollar deviations.

 

 

As raw material prices have gone up manufacturers have gradually cheapened machines to keep sale prices from rising as fast as inflation.

 

 

I don't deny your lived experience or what you witnessed. However if you take a look at rental properties and condos where GE appliances were installed by the hundreds of thousands if not millions across the US and Canada it is very much the norm for 80s GE appliances to last 30 years with minimal repairs. There are still basic Potscrubbers from 1983-1989 going to this day. 80s washers,  dryers and stoves. Half the time they are replaced not because they are broken, rather outdated in the eyes of today's tenants. Not to mention all the OPL and laundromat machines that have gone 15-20 years with daily use.

 

 

I don't consider you as a little kid. You were able to articulate a constructive on topic reply without resorting to personal attacks, name calling or unfounded rumors.

 

[johnb300m]

No. Nope. Nada. Nein. Nyet. Non.
I’ve lived in a dozen apartments over the years. None of them had any 80s GEs. They were all early 90s at the latest.
And yes many of my apartments were old.

I stand corrected. I toured one apartment that has late 80s WP pre- power clean dishwasher.
But that was the demo unit. No other actual units had 80s machines.

 

[Chetlaham]

It depends on when they were renovated, and what was installed at the time of build. If the Apartments were built any time before 1983/1984, ~50/50 chance they would've had a Plastisol dishwashers in them. Given that plastisol tubs rust in about 10 years, by the late 80s/early 90s the replacements would've been commencing. 

 

In fact GE knew very well they had some of the shortest lasting dishwashers in the 1970s. Around that time GE became serious and began planning, engineering and finally gradually phasing their Permatuff line which was completely re-engineered from the ground up. Their serious attempt resulted in some of the longest lasting dishwashers ever made and longevity went up in general across their entire appliance lineup. 

 

By the time the early 90s came around, GE began to slowly reverse their efforts and what came in the late 90s/early 2000s set the stage for them selling to Haier.    

 

[combo52]

Redesigned GE dishwashers

Reply number 83 as usual total BS.

G E didn’t do a total redesign of their dishwashers until about 2011 when everything changed. The last major redesign was 1967 when they went to that awful pump.

The GE dishwashers in the 90s were quite good except for the pump and lack luster performance. Their early tall tub models were actually quite reliable. They just weren’t great performers, but they were well built and they got away from the awful drain valve system in the cheaper models.

The 1980s plastic tub dishwasher used a lot of the same parts as the plastisol ones most of all they use that awful motor and drain valve assembly pump by far the worst pump in any dishwasher that was mass produced in the US ever, the only good thing about that pump is we make a lot of money replacing them I’ve replaced two in the last two weeks.

John L

 

[maytag85]

Honestly, I think it’s time to put this thread out to pasture.

 

[Chetlaham]

The handful of parts that are physically interchangeable between plastisol and permatuff minus the water valve, door latch, upper rack guide, and screws; had engineering, design or build modifications done to them. Such as the pump bodies being re-shaped to have less carry over water, the pop-up tower water distribution slots changed, number of wash arm holes consolidated, drain solenoid encapsulation and drain bracket design changed, lower rack wheels, ect. Beyond these changes the rest was a totally new design.

 

Just about every single part was re-examined, reconsidered, recalculated, re-tested and modified as needed to fulfill GE's new goals. Some engineering changes were relatively minor like the spray arm hub, while others were a completely new design like the permatuff tub and door, detergent cams, detergent cups, vent system, heater, timer, sump boot, sump grates, fascia molding, door hinges, motor mount, float, wire harness, cycle sequence, and the list goes on. 

 

Just because a handful of parts are interchangeable between permatuff and plastisol, doesn't mean they have not been re-engineered in some way. In fact the same pump and motor assembly between 1967 and 2007 has probably endured at least four dozen engineering revisions everywhere from the motor bearings to the size of the drain port to the macerator to the seals to the motor's protector to the drain flapper, ect despite the fact said pumps are physically interchangeable between so many models.  

 

 

GE dishwashers peaked between 1983 and 1991. After that the decline began. 

 

[gelaundry4ever]

to chetlaham

Now we only have tall tub GE dishwashers. My dad has one in his house in Houston which is a builder grade GE. While it does get the dishes coean, it feels like a cheap toy compared to their previous models. Their laundry line is no better. If it was better, they would've had a filter-flo, minibasket, a full size stainless steel wash basket, and a stainless steel outer tub all while being "energy efficient". You need water to clean and filter out lint. Many consumers including myself or anybody who has simply used a filter-flo alone wants one back. For the umpteenth time! I want my laundry and dishes done right the first time! What do these people not understand? Do they think we're stupid?

 

[agiflow]

Jerome. If you could have a GE Filter-Flo washer, do you have a place for it at home?

 

[gelaundry4ever]

energy star Kenmore/Bosch

There's nothing wrong with my energy star Kenmore/Bosch. I just wish the spray was constantly at full pressure. That's why I investigate everything, even open the door during a cycle sometimes just so I'm sure the spray arms are traveling even at low pressure. I even went as far as taking both arms off the racks and bottom so I'm sure water is being forced through at all speeds and pressure levels. That's why I have a pet peeve about these new dishwashers. I want water to shoot everywhere. It should be shooting everywhere to insure that no nook or cranny is missed and every single dish is hit with jets of water. I'm sure chetlaham would agree.

 

[johnb300m]

Why don’t you start a podcast Jerome?

My favorite engineering quote is from a programmer;
“Programming today is a race between software engineers building bigger and better idiot-proof programs. And the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots.
So far the universe is winning.

And how do you know ANY of this Chet?
Did you work for GE?
Did staff members divulge secrets of their design/development processes?
Or are you such a geek you have created an entire database of their part number and revision changes over the decades?
What parts are changed and why is confidential internal engineering information.

 

[johnb300m]

Uhhh I’m sure the Bosch engineers know what they’re doing with the spray patterns.
Your feelings about water spray do not matter in sound design or sales decisions.
Thank goodness for that.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

engineer

Do I need to be an engineer? No! Does it matter? No! When you wash dishes with a weak spray and for 3 hours, you're just spreading the dirt around. Consumers are waking up each and every day!

 

[johnb300m]

You’re a liar Jerome.
So you’re telling me your Kenmore Bosch is just smearing dirt and grease around your dishes?
How can you eat off that?
Why don’t you go out and get a vintage dishwasher like many of us here?
You’re all talk and no action.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

smearing dirt

No, it is not smearing dirt! It does clean the dishes! For the umpteenth time! I prefer the sprays to blast the dishes constantly like older models did! The older machines just got right down to business instead of trickling them with water! GEEZ!!!! I'm sure chetlaham would agree! If there's one thing, it does leave food in the filter despite the dishes being clean! I just sit there and observe! For the umpteenth time!

 

[ea56]

Jesus, Mary and Joseph, ENOUGH already!

For cryin’ out loud you guys keep beatin’ a horse that died a long time ago.

If you don’t like new dishwashers, DON’T use one! Problem solved!

There are WAY more important things to be concerned about in February of 2025, and the spray pattern of dishwashers is the last thing to be concerned about with the state that our nation and the world are in right this very minute.

Get a life!

Eddie[this post was last edited: 2/25/2025-17:39]

 

[gelaundry4ever]

to e56

Does it matter? When a dishwasher produces weak spray and doesn't get the dishes clean, you're damn right I'm livid about it! Every item in the dishwasher be hit anc cleaned. I am serious! And washers that don't clean properly cause health problems too! For the millionth time. Water is what cleans dishes and powerful jets! Nobody has time for cycles that last 3 hours! Screw the EPA, and screw the DOE!!!! They're the reasons why people are having health problems![this post was last edited: 2/25/2025-20:11]

 

[ea56]

Jerome,
I have been washing our dishes by hand since April 2018 and I and my husband NEVER get sick! The last time I had the flu was over 20 years ago when I was still working and exposed to sick people on a daily basis.

Using a dishwasher be it a 1960’s water hog or a new model is no guarantee for avoidance of illness.

The reasons that people have health problems is because many people are PIGS with utter disregard for proper sanitation in all phases of their lives! Plus they fail to get vaccinated against preventable illnesses due to their warped view points on recommended preventative health.

If this is all you have to worry about you’re not paying attention to the world around you.

No one wants to be subjected to your endless rants about things you have no control over. I stand by my recommendation that you get a life, you’ll be much happier and live longer without the needless stress you’re subjecting yourself to.

Eddie

 

[simpsomatic]

Bedtime

Jerome and Chet.....it is way past your bedtime. Goodnight and don't let the bed bugs bite.

 

[maytag85]

Reply #98

It’s your bedtime, too. You’ve made snide remarks and comments to me and others on the site over the years. It seems as though you are just here to stir the pot, noting else.