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Why don’t you start a podcast Jerome?

My favorite engineering quote is from a programmer;
“Programming today is a race between software engineers building bigger and better idiot-proof programs. And the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots.
So far the universe is winning.

And how do you know ANY of this Chet?
Did you work for GE?
Did staff members divulge secrets of their design/development processes?
Or are you such a geek you have created an entire database of their part number and revision changes over the decades?
What parts are changed and why is confidential internal engineering information.
 
Uhhh I’m sure the Bosch engineers know what they’re doing with the spray patterns.
Your feelings about water spray do not matter in sound design or sales decisions.
Thank goodness for that.
 
You’re a liar Jerome.
So you’re telling me your Kenmore Bosch is just smearing dirt and grease around your dishes?
How can you eat off that?
Why don’t you go out and get a vintage dishwasher like many of us here?
You’re all talk and no action.
 
smearing dirt

No, it is not smearing dirt! It does clean the dishes! For the umpteenth time! I prefer the sprays to blast the dishes constantly like older models did! The older machines just got right down to business instead of trickling them with water! GEEZ!!!! I'm sure chetlaham would agree! If there's one thing, it does leave food in the filter despite the dishes being clean! I just sit there and observe! For the umpteenth time!
 
Jesus, Mary and Joseph, ENOUGH already!

For cryin’ out loud you guys keep beatin’ a horse that died a long time ago.

If you don’t like new dishwashers, DON’T use one! Problem solved!

There are WAY more important things to be concerned about in February of 2025, and the spray pattern of dishwashers is the last thing to be concerned about with the state that our nation and the world are in right this very minute.

Get a life!

Eddie[this post was last edited: 2/25/2025-17:39]
 
to e56

Does it matter? When a dishwasher produces weak spray and doesn't get the dishes clean, you're damn right I'm livid about it! Every item in the dishwasher be hit anc cleaned. I am serious! And washers that don't clean properly cause health problems too! For the millionth time. Water is what cleans dishes and powerful jets! Nobody has time for cycles that last 3 hours! Screw the EPA, and screw the DOE!!!! They're the reasons why people are having health problems![this post was last edited: 2/25/2025-20:11]
 
Jerome,
I have been washing our dishes by hand since April 2018 and I and my husband NEVER get sick! The last time I had the flu was over 20 years ago when I was still working and exposed to sick people on a daily basis.

Using a dishwasher be it a 1960’s water hog or a new model is no guarantee for avoidance of illness.

The reasons that people have health problems is because many people are PIGS with utter disregard for proper sanitation in all phases of their lives! Plus they fail to get vaccinated against preventable illnesses due to their warped view points on recommended preventative health.

If this is all you have to worry about you’re not paying attention to the world around you.

No one wants to be subjected to your endless rants about things you have no control over. I stand by my recommendation that you get a life, you’ll be much happier and live longer without the needless stress you’re subjecting yourself to.

Eddie
 
I'll just say this. For years I felt a lot like certain members on here, although I wasn't as vocal about it I will say that much. Kept buying top load washers, even used ones, because I couldn't wrap my head around an FL that worked, only heard the horror stories and didn't listen to what they can actually do for people. When the control board died on my previous Whirlpool TL I bought an LG WM4000 front load washer and I'm never going back to a TL. If you throw on an extra rinse or two, it actually rinses better than any top load washer I've ever owned. My wife has super sensitive skin and she used to itch constantly, even switched to free and clear detergents and she was still itchy. I'm using regular Tide powder with downy now in the FL and what do ya know? She doesn't itch at all anymore. Clothes generally smell better, feel better, and I imagine look better. And I've been able to cut down to about 1-2 loads of laundry a week instead of the previous 3 or so I used to do owning TL's. I still have a standard Whirlpool dryer and the LG washer spins clothes so dry that the WP dryer makes work of them in no time. I love my FL and am so glad I gave it a chance. That's the thing, people think something is great in its time, i.e., water-hungry TL washers, but then innovation happens. Washers use less water, dishwashers use less water, and both are much quieter and can handle much more laundry and dishes. Wouldn't it actually be kind of a problem if things were exactly as they were 30 years ago? Stagnation is the enemy of progress, and this is coming from someone who struggles with change, I have emotional regulation issues and change really throws me off-track. But I also know that change is the only constant in life.
 
I heard this story from a lot of people on here. "Went to a front loader and never looked back".

Bought my first front loader back in June 2019. Whirlpool WTW6620HW.

While liked the capacity it had, I really didn't find my clothes appreciably cleaner.

Maybe because I don't get them ground in dirty these days.

At the time, had a Speed Queen top loader also.
I washed clothes for a friend and the load smelled like damp stale cigarettes.

Even after a heavy duty cycle they still smelled.

When I did them in the Speed Queen top loader, no more smell of nasty cigarettes. Proper dilution with enough water.

While I liked the front loader, it never swayed me to leave top load washing.

It isn't for me the magic bullet it seems to be for soo many other people.

People are acting like front load washing is this new thing that we have been so deprived of in the USA.

Hey, if it works for you, more power to you. Different strokes for different folks.
 
Implementation is Key

The downfall of US front loaders are the lack of heated cycles. All front load cycles should heat the water to a target temperature based on the fabric type with detergent working in stages. This has been the key to FL success throughout most of the world. 

 

I actually considered buying a Speed Queen front load in 2012-2013 however what put me off was the lack of onboard heater. A heater with each cycle heating to a wash temp of say 20*C for colors, 30*C for handwash, 40*C for delicate, 50*C for Casuals, 60*C for normal, 70*C towels, 80*C Heavy, 90*C whites, 100*C sanitize I think would have been ideal. 

 

Or a separate temperature knob labeled like this:

 

 

 

infographic-washing-machine-temperature-guide.jpg
 
I love both front loaders and top loaders, in fact my favorite washer of all time is a top loader. But if I had to choose between the two, front loaders is a no brainer. Even my mom who's on her fourth washer says that she's never going back to top loaders in her house. Her first two were GE top loaders, one of them was a Filter-Flo. The last washer she had was a Maytag Neptune front loader, I honestly missed that one more than the two top loaders. For my next house hopefully I'd love to have two washers and dryers, one top loader and one front loader. Still though, the front loader would be my go to machine. This is one of those energy efficient products that I'm super happy came into existence cause I found nothing better than a front loader. My mom who also owns a energy efficient dishwasher says that it's the best dishwasher she's ever owned and I agree. My point here is I have no problem with buying energy efficient that can clean just as well if not better, why would I need something that uses so much energy and water? Doesn't really make sense to me.
 
@chetlaham -

The sad part is that since all American washers run on 120VAC, the heating element is a bit limited I fear. I would imagine that given that the circut we all use are 120v/15AC that there may not be enough room for a proper heater like what the Europeans have.

Inversely, Asko does sell a 220v washer in the US that piggybacks the power from the dryer to the washer. I wonder if that would be a good way to solve the issue potentially. I wonder if stacked units like, say, LG's WashTower or Electrolux's laundry center could utilize such a system and offer a vastly superior experience.
 
I don't know what your energy rates are out in Utah, but my water bill is very manageable and when I have my thermostat set down to about 65° it drops my heating bill significantly.


I have gas heat and I've noticed in the last 4 years my bills have gone exponentially higher like everything else has.

I was considering getting one of the new Whirlpool front loaders. I would like to give it a shot again. Only for the fact that I don't have to drag a queen size comforter to the laundromat every month.

If front loaders are the way we must go, then I hope under this administration that they take the water restrictions off the water amounts they can use and start being a little more generous with an already inherently efficient design.

Is that really asking too much ?
 
Honestly, I’d put the blame on consumers and corporations who don’t care. Oblivious consumers are the enabler which essentially tells companies “It’s okay to keep on making inferior junk”, hence why things are the way they are. If you want to send a message, got to stop blinding consuming things.
 
I actually had a conversation with an engineer with one of the major companies about why modern machines are so poorly made. He was very honest with me.

He said that quite literally, the corporate guys put a # of years that they want the design to last for. That's literally it.

They could, tomorrow, make a washing machine last 20 years and meet any and all guidelines to make it happen. Easily.

The problem is that 20 year washing machine won't be cheap. And the problem is that consumers are very, very enamored with cheap, low-end units that get the clothes washed and pretty much nothing else. There was a race to the bottom on price (walmart effect) that all appliances have been caught up in, and the corporations can't release a unit that is extremely reliable with all of the issues it gets caught up in, which is cost.

I remember reading some of the old literature from when HE machines were coming on the market. The argument that some of the consumer advocacy groups made about it wasn't that HE's were unreliable, its that they were expensive... Citing the costs for machines like Neptunes, Duets, Calypsos and others in the early 00s as they were 2x more expensive than basic ones. Their argument was the prices would go up. They never did. But what happened is prices stayed stagnant while they reduced quality which has been on a decline since the 1980s when each company kept iterating cheaper designs to keep washers around the $500 price point. Now the corps are afraid to do a 15 or 20 year design because it WILL cost more money like you see out of a GE or Maytag commercial, or what Speed Queen has, and not everyone wants a "Buy it for life" washer it seems.
 
@mrstickball: What I've been saying in 4,130 post, you just said it much more eloquently and summed up in one post.  

 

 

There is an engineer on here (Thomas Ortega) who said nearly the exact same thing backing up your statement. 

 

 

Companies force engineers to build ultra cheap machines, and consumers essentially demand them. 

 

 

The only thing that will change anything is a mass shift in thinking.

 

 

@dadoes: If consumers demanded that energy restrictions went away, they would. The people are the other side of the government having the final say.
 
Right, hence why I used the word "mass". At least tens of millions of people would have to start asking for more durable appliances and/or start buying the remaining few like Speed Queen for competitors to follow suite. It is a dream of mine. What that will take will be a revolution, and perhaps a new generation, but I sometimes have my doubts. I feel like things will stagnate and the universe will pass away in a slow heat death. 
 
"the large consumer-base that won't pay the cost for more robust construction."

Not sure about that. I see plenty of reviews on other sites with people livid about their $3K Kitchen Aid and $4K Bosch refrigerators dying months into ownership. The companies are also dodging buyers on repairs, making them wait months to fix legitimate problems if not longer. A $4K refrigerator is NOT cheap, even by todays standards.

There's definitely a market for expensive appliances but they have NOT proven themselves to be reliable. Today, more expensive appliances are actually less reliable in most cases. The days of getting better quality for more money was already starting to dwindle with the 1980's. Companies also need to step up to the plate and fix problems in a timely manner that are under warranty and not play bullshit games. They should also be R&D'ing their junk before shipping it out so it doesn't bite them in the ass later down the road. Let engineers have more say and build a quality product they're proud of instead of forcing them to cheapen the hell out of the design that they're deeply embarrassed of signing their name on.
 
There are two types of expensive: One that buys material durability, the other that buys features and cycles. People mistakenly believe features and cycles that they'll never use are signs of progress. Its a marketing ploy to get people to hand over money while getting nothing practical in return.   

 

 
 

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