EPA Reversals
- Thread starter iiijohnnymaciii
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bedtime
What do you mean it's past our bedtime? I'm not stupid. I'm an adult.
What do you mean it's past our bedtime? I'm not stupid. I'm an adult.
Really....
It's time like you all acted like one.
It's time like you all acted like one.
ryner1988
Well-known member
Whoa holy hell! I haven't been on here in a week or so, last time I saw this thread it had like 30 responses. This escalated quickly.
ryner1988
Well-known member
I'll just say this. For years I felt a lot like certain members on here, although I wasn't as vocal about it I will say that much. Kept buying top load washers, even used ones, because I couldn't wrap my head around an FL that worked, only heard the horror stories and didn't listen to what they can actually do for people. When the control board died on my previous Whirlpool TL I bought an LG WM4000 front load washer and I'm never going back to a TL. If you throw on an extra rinse or two, it actually rinses better than any top load washer I've ever owned. My wife has super sensitive skin and she used to itch constantly, even switched to free and clear detergents and she was still itchy. I'm using regular Tide powder with downy now in the FL and what do ya know? She doesn't itch at all anymore. Clothes generally smell better, feel better, and I imagine look better. And I've been able to cut down to about 1-2 loads of laundry a week instead of the previous 3 or so I used to do owning TL's. I still have a standard Whirlpool dryer and the LG washer spins clothes so dry that the WP dryer makes work of them in no time. I love my FL and am so glad I gave it a chance. That's the thing, people think something is great in its time, i.e., water-hungry TL washers, but then innovation happens. Washers use less water, dishwashers use less water, and both are much quieter and can handle much more laundry and dishes. Wouldn't it actually be kind of a problem if things were exactly as they were 30 years ago? Stagnation is the enemy of progress, and this is coming from someone who struggles with change, I have emotional regulation issues and change really throws me off-track. But I also know that change is the only constant in life.
I heard this story from a lot of people on here. "Went to a front loader and never looked back".
Bought my first front loader back in June 2019. Whirlpool WTW6620HW.
While liked the capacity it had, I really didn't find my clothes appreciably cleaner.
Maybe because I don't get them ground in dirty these days.
At the time, had a Speed Queen top loader also.
I washed clothes for a friend and the load smelled like damp stale cigarettes.
Even after a heavy duty cycle they still smelled.
When I did them in the Speed Queen top loader, no more smell of nasty cigarettes. Proper dilution with enough water.
While I liked the front loader, it never swayed me to leave top load washing.
It isn't for me the magic bullet it seems to be for soo many other people.
People are acting like front load washing is this new thing that we have been so deprived of in the USA.
Hey, if it works for you, more power to you. Different strokes for different folks.
Bought my first front loader back in June 2019. Whirlpool WTW6620HW.
While liked the capacity it had, I really didn't find my clothes appreciably cleaner.
Maybe because I don't get them ground in dirty these days.
At the time, had a Speed Queen top loader also.
I washed clothes for a friend and the load smelled like damp stale cigarettes.
Even after a heavy duty cycle they still smelled.
When I did them in the Speed Queen top loader, no more smell of nasty cigarettes. Proper dilution with enough water.
While I liked the front loader, it never swayed me to leave top load washing.
It isn't for me the magic bullet it seems to be for soo many other people.
People are acting like front load washing is this new thing that we have been so deprived of in the USA.
Hey, if it works for you, more power to you. Different strokes for different folks.
Implementation is Key
The downfall of US front loaders are the lack of heated cycles. All front load cycles should heat the water to a target temperature based on the fabric type with detergent working in stages. This has been the key to FL success throughout most of the world.
I actually considered buying a Speed Queen front load in 2012-2013 however what put me off was the lack of onboard heater. A heater with each cycle heating to a wash temp of say 20*C for colors, 30*C for handwash, 40*C for delicate, 50*C for Casuals, 60*C for normal, 70*C towels, 80*C Heavy, 90*C whites, 100*C sanitize I think would have been ideal.
Or a separate temperature knob labeled like this:
The downfall of US front loaders are the lack of heated cycles. All front load cycles should heat the water to a target temperature based on the fabric type with detergent working in stages. This has been the key to FL success throughout most of the world.
I actually considered buying a Speed Queen front load in 2012-2013 however what put me off was the lack of onboard heater. A heater with each cycle heating to a wash temp of say 20*C for colors, 30*C for handwash, 40*C for delicate, 50*C for Casuals, 60*C for normal, 70*C towels, 80*C Heavy, 90*C whites, 100*C sanitize I think would have been ideal.
Or a separate temperature knob labeled like this:
panasonicvac
Well-known member
I love both front loaders and top loaders, in fact my favorite washer of all time is a top loader. But if I had to choose between the two, front loaders is a no brainer. Even my mom who's on her fourth washer says that she's never going back to top loaders in her house. Her first two were GE top loaders, one of them was a Filter-Flo. The last washer she had was a Maytag Neptune front loader, I honestly missed that one more than the two top loaders. For my next house hopefully I'd love to have two washers and dryers, one top loader and one front loader. Still though, the front loader would be my go to machine. This is one of those energy efficient products that I'm super happy came into existence cause I found nothing better than a front loader. My mom who also owns a energy efficient dishwasher says that it's the best dishwasher she's ever owned and I agree. My point here is I have no problem with buying energy efficient that can clean just as well if not better, why would I need something that uses so much energy and water? Doesn't really make sense to me.
@chetlaham -
The sad part is that since all American washers run on 120VAC, the heating element is a bit limited I fear. I would imagine that given that the circut we all use are 120v/15AC that there may not be enough room for a proper heater like what the Europeans have.
Inversely, Asko does sell a 220v washer in the US that piggybacks the power from the dryer to the washer. I wonder if that would be a good way to solve the issue potentially. I wonder if stacked units like, say, LG's WashTower or Electrolux's laundry center could utilize such a system and offer a vastly superior experience.
The sad part is that since all American washers run on 120VAC, the heating element is a bit limited I fear. I would imagine that given that the circut we all use are 120v/15AC that there may not be enough room for a proper heater like what the Europeans have.
Inversely, Asko does sell a 220v washer in the US that piggybacks the power from the dryer to the washer. I wonder if that would be a good way to solve the issue potentially. I wonder if stacked units like, say, LG's WashTower or Electrolux's laundry center could utilize such a system and offer a vastly superior experience.
I don't know what your energy rates are out in Utah, but my water bill is very manageable and when I have my thermostat set down to about 65° it drops my heating bill significantly.
I have gas heat and I've noticed in the last 4 years my bills have gone exponentially higher like everything else has.
I was considering getting one of the new Whirlpool front loaders. I would like to give it a shot again. Only for the fact that I don't have to drag a queen size comforter to the laundromat every month.
If front loaders are the way we must go, then I hope under this administration that they take the water restrictions off the water amounts they can use and start being a little more generous with an already inherently efficient design.
Is that really asking too much ?
I have gas heat and I've noticed in the last 4 years my bills have gone exponentially higher like everything else has.
I was considering getting one of the new Whirlpool front loaders. I would like to give it a shot again. Only for the fact that I don't have to drag a queen size comforter to the laundromat every month.
If front loaders are the way we must go, then I hope under this administration that they take the water restrictions off the water amounts they can use and start being a little more generous with an already inherently efficient design.
Is that really asking too much ?
volvoman
Well-known member
Reply 100....
...The jury is still out on that one.
...The jury is still out on that one.
disposable appliances
I've heard that appliances are disposable due to the EPA. This is especially true when they don't last long. It's like they solve a problem and create another at the same time.
I've heard that appliances are disposable due to the EPA. This is especially true when they don't last long. It's like they solve a problem and create another at the same time.
Honestly, I’d put the blame on consumers and corporations who don’t care. Oblivious consumers are the enabler which essentially tells companies “It’s okay to keep on making inferior junk”, hence why things are the way they are. If you want to send a message, got to stop blinding consuming things.
I actually had a conversation with an engineer with one of the major companies about why modern machines are so poorly made. He was very honest with me.
He said that quite literally, the corporate guys put a # of years that they want the design to last for. That's literally it.
They could, tomorrow, make a washing machine last 20 years and meet any and all guidelines to make it happen. Easily.
The problem is that 20 year washing machine won't be cheap. And the problem is that consumers are very, very enamored with cheap, low-end units that get the clothes washed and pretty much nothing else. There was a race to the bottom on price (walmart effect) that all appliances have been caught up in, and the corporations can't release a unit that is extremely reliable with all of the issues it gets caught up in, which is cost.
I remember reading some of the old literature from when HE machines were coming on the market. The argument that some of the consumer advocacy groups made about it wasn't that HE's were unreliable, its that they were expensive... Citing the costs for machines like Neptunes, Duets, Calypsos and others in the early 00s as they were 2x more expensive than basic ones. Their argument was the prices would go up. They never did. But what happened is prices stayed stagnant while they reduced quality which has been on a decline since the 1980s when each company kept iterating cheaper designs to keep washers around the $500 price point. Now the corps are afraid to do a 15 or 20 year design because it WILL cost more money like you see out of a GE or Maytag commercial, or what Speed Queen has, and not everyone wants a "Buy it for life" washer it seems.
He said that quite literally, the corporate guys put a # of years that they want the design to last for. That's literally it.
They could, tomorrow, make a washing machine last 20 years and meet any and all guidelines to make it happen. Easily.
The problem is that 20 year washing machine won't be cheap. And the problem is that consumers are very, very enamored with cheap, low-end units that get the clothes washed and pretty much nothing else. There was a race to the bottom on price (walmart effect) that all appliances have been caught up in, and the corporations can't release a unit that is extremely reliable with all of the issues it gets caught up in, which is cost.
I remember reading some of the old literature from when HE machines were coming on the market. The argument that some of the consumer advocacy groups made about it wasn't that HE's were unreliable, its that they were expensive... Citing the costs for machines like Neptunes, Duets, Calypsos and others in the early 00s as they were 2x more expensive than basic ones. Their argument was the prices would go up. They never did. But what happened is prices stayed stagnant while they reduced quality which has been on a decline since the 1980s when each company kept iterating cheaper designs to keep washers around the $500 price point. Now the corps are afraid to do a 15 or 20 year design because it WILL cost more money like you see out of a GE or Maytag commercial, or what Speed Queen has, and not everyone wants a "Buy it for life" washer it seems.
And who is blame? Exactly as the stated above ... the large consumer-base that won't pay the cost for more robust construction.
NOT THE MANUFACTURERS OR THE EPA.
@mrstickball: What I've been saying in 4,130 post, you just said it much more eloquently and summed up in one post.
There is an engineer on here (Thomas Ortega) who said nearly the exact same thing backing up your statement.
Companies force engineers to build ultra cheap machines, and consumers essentially demand them.
The only thing that will change anything is a mass shift in thinking.
@dadoes: If consumers demanded that energy restrictions went away, they would. The people are the other side of the government having the final say.
There is an engineer on here (Thomas Ortega) who said nearly the exact same thing backing up your statement.
Companies force engineers to build ultra cheap machines, and consumers essentially demand them.
The only thing that will change anything is a mass shift in thinking.
@dadoes: If consumers demanded that energy restrictions went away, they would. The people are the other side of the government having the final say.
They aren't in sufficient numbers for it to happen ...
Right, hence why I used the word "mass". At least tens of millions of people would have to start asking for more durable appliances and/or start buying the remaining few like Speed Queen for competitors to follow suite. It is a dream of mine. What that will take will be a revolution, and perhaps a new generation, but I sometimes have my doubts. I feel like things will stagnate and the universe will pass away in a slow heat death.
"the large consumer-base that won't pay the cost for more robust construction."
Not sure about that. I see plenty of reviews on other sites with people livid about their $3K Kitchen Aid and $4K Bosch refrigerators dying months into ownership. The companies are also dodging buyers on repairs, making them wait months to fix legitimate problems if not longer. A $4K refrigerator is NOT cheap, even by todays standards.
There's definitely a market for expensive appliances but they have NOT proven themselves to be reliable. Today, more expensive appliances are actually less reliable in most cases. The days of getting better quality for more money was already starting to dwindle with the 1980's. Companies also need to step up to the plate and fix problems in a timely manner that are under warranty and not play bullshit games. They should also be R&D'ing their junk before shipping it out so it doesn't bite them in the ass later down the road. Let engineers have more say and build a quality product they're proud of instead of forcing them to cheapen the hell out of the design that they're deeply embarrassed of signing their name on.
Not sure about that. I see plenty of reviews on other sites with people livid about their $3K Kitchen Aid and $4K Bosch refrigerators dying months into ownership. The companies are also dodging buyers on repairs, making them wait months to fix legitimate problems if not longer. A $4K refrigerator is NOT cheap, even by todays standards.
There's definitely a market for expensive appliances but they have NOT proven themselves to be reliable. Today, more expensive appliances are actually less reliable in most cases. The days of getting better quality for more money was already starting to dwindle with the 1980's. Companies also need to step up to the plate and fix problems in a timely manner that are under warranty and not play bullshit games. They should also be R&D'ing their junk before shipping it out so it doesn't bite them in the ass later down the road. Let engineers have more say and build a quality product they're proud of instead of forcing them to cheapen the hell out of the design that they're deeply embarrassed of signing their name on.
