FL WASHERS and BAD MOLD SMELLS; when did you 1st hear about this issue?

[3beltwesty]

you must sell fl washers; if you defend such poor choice of

Re "FL westinghouses and yet they were widely considered one of the most unreliable automatic washers anyway."

The FL 1947 westy lasted until 1976; ie 31 years.

The FL 1976 Westy lasted until 2005 when a bearing failed; after 29 years

The FL 1976 got new bearings and a new seal in 2006 and was run until 2010; when I decided to replace its worn shaft last November

The web is full of modern FL washers with broken Aluminum spiders; were the entire washer has to be scrapped after 3 to 7 years

My take is you sell new washers; thus you defend crappy poor aluminum designs that fail.

Modern FL washers in the USA have a mess of complaints, lawsuits.
t
There are folks who have bought FL washers and they died early; and will NEVER buy one again.

The reason the old Westy's lasted so long is they had no aluminum; ie a crappy poor material to use in a washer

 

[limey]

Response to 3beltwesty

To 3beltwesty.
Oh we agree on so much but differ, slightly, on some details.
‘The spider and drum do NOT go completely underwater like not a Boat's propeller, the spin basket's shaft is above the water level on my old 1976 westy too. With a modern front loader; the water level often just touches the spin basket.’ I agree.
‘It is the end arms to basket junction that sees water exposure the most, plus it has the highest velocity to have its water shed off compared to the inter shaft area.’ I agree but more on this later.
‘The web is full of aluminum spiders that are all corroded and were folks washers have broken. There are posts and images that go back for a decade. The whole issue of Aluminum spiders breaking due to corrosion has documented failures even before 2000, thus to me it is criminal that the engineers design in such a poor design.’ I generally agree but having worked as a development engineer in the dim past, please see thread 29110, Post# 446153 dated 2010-07-01, I cannot totally blame the engineers, they/we developed/researched/tested what our employers wanted.
‘Aluminum is not the proper material to use in a washer, folks did not do this 1/2 century ago. Engineers then had pride in creating a good design. ‘ I cannot totally agree with this, aluminum could be made ‘suitable’ or ‘proper’ with a suitable coating, used as it is with nothing more than the naturally occurring oxide coating is, in my opinion verging on the criminal. Again totally blaming the engineers I do not believe is fully justified for the reasons stated above.
‘An engineer from Mars could arrive tomorrow, 2005,or 2000 and Google "washer problems" and find failed Front loaders and bad aluminum spiders. If he had a gram of integrity he would not use Aluminum, or make the design more robust with a spider with less surface area, ie thicker dumb. ‘Generally agree but see above for defence of engineers in general, and in my case particularly British ones!
‘An engineer 100 years ago knew that one wanted raw thickness in areas were one has corrosion. Folks knew this 3000 years ago, thicker items last longer around corrosion. Folks knew this 10.000 years ago with fence posts, a thicker post lasts longer when in the ground.’ No argument from me on any point in that.
‘(1) Aluminum is poor for fatigue life, a cyclic failure where stress varies.
(2)Cast materials have high spreads in fatigue failures due to casting finish and porosity.
(3) Spiders that are space age CAD designed for strength and have thin webs are poor in a corrosive environment. A Roman engineer knew this, but would go to the gallows for such bad infraction. An engineering book from 100 years ago on design around corrosion areas clearly mentions corrosion as being mills/year, mm/year and stresses one wants thick members to have parts last longer. The thin Aluminum spider is a great design to spin in air, but poor around a corrosive laundry wash area. A Miele spider is Steel,and is a simple rectangular shape to have the least surface area and decent thickness.’ I generally agree but with the following comments.
1) The fatigue live of an aluminium component may be increased with ‘proper’ manufacturing techniques, should these already have been incorporated then you have to live with what you get or suffer the consequences, or alter the material.
2) From what I have seen of these spiders (I know that is not very much) they appear to be pressure die castings, now I know that when I retired 5.5 years ago pressure die-casting techniques had come a long way from the early days, surface finish and porosity were normally not an ongoing problem. I am unaware of developments since that time.
3) You and I both recently contributed to a thread concerning a Miele spider which I believe was a coated steel. This was from an older machine. I have seen two posts at least one of which is on this site where the poster has stated that Miele have informed them that the spiders are made of an aluminum alloy. I therefore believe that although Miele may have used steel spiders in the past they have ‘recently’ changed. Miele did not respond to my written query on this matter.
‘Most new front loaders sold in the USA today have a design that has many design flaws:
(a)Aluminum in wash area
(b)Dissimilar metals bonded together in a corrosive environment
(c)Cast materials in corrosive environment.
(d)Thin sections of metals that corrode in a corrosive environment
Design Flaws of a to d create a washer designed to fail with time and wash cycles, a marketers DREAM COME TRUE! ‘ Generally agree with the following comments;-
a) Would add ‘unprotected’ in front of ‘Aluminum’.
b) More on this later.
c) Again would add ‘unprotected’
d) Again would add ‘unprotected’ in front of ‘metals’.
Now onto the bits not dealt with above. All I believe are concerned with how galvanic corrosion works to a greater or lesser extent. I really wish I could induce you to read the paper on galvanic corrosion at: -
http://www.unene.ca/un1001/UN1001_Galvanic Corrosion.ppt
it explains so much, far better than I can. Additionally it explains, on page 36, why the aluminum adjacent to the stainless steel drum does not corrode even though the stainless steel is more noble than the aluminium.
Although I agree that galvanic corrosion can be complex it still does just come down to a simple cell. A good, one page, paper on this, which also deals with the corrosion of aluminium can be found at: -
http://www.sintef.no/static/mt/norlight/seminars/norlight2003/Postere/Gaute Svenningsen.pdf
I believe you may well find it interesting.
Even though the spider shaft is above the water level in FL washers the area up by the hub still gets wet, if it did not there would be no need for the seal between the tub and the bearings and the bearings would never fail due to water ingress. However water, and all its containments, does get to that area and as you have observed, correctly, I believe, the outer ends of the arms will move the fastest. Please see my post # 501726 above to neptunebob for the speeds I have calculated for my spider (I do not know the actual highest spin speed but as it is directly related to the linear velocity any transposing is easy enough). The linear speed of the shaft and hub I believe is insufficient to throw off the water, and its contaminants, from these areas resulting in the possibility of corrosion and/or build-up of smelly deposits.
Below I have included a photograph of the end of one arm from the spider removed from my Frigidaire built machine after 7.5 years of service. The other two arms were similar. You will note the build-up of the products of corrosion, heavily compressed by the restraining force of the drum. There was very little other corrosion at the end of the arm leading me to believe that this area also ‘holds’ contaminated water at the end of the spin cycle. I further believe that once the corrosion in this area reaches a certain level the products of corrosion form a barrier thus preventing or largely preventing further corrosion. Similarly there were products of corrosion in the holes for the setscrews securing the spider to the drum. These setscrews are ‘rounded triangular’ in section and therefore leave relatively large ‘holes’ in the holes; another spot for contaminated water to be held. Together with the recesses in the hub these could easily, I feel, be made into a case for ‘designed to fail’.

 

[3beltwesty]

It really is more complex than a simple cell; since the items like the 201 stainless spin basket and cast aluminum spider are really justed wetted; ie not under water.

If one studies fence posts; a piers piles; the corrosion is most at the ground or water level, NOT far below or FAR above.

Aluminum and Magnesium are the far end of the Noblity table of metals. That is why they are poor choices around a corrosive area.

Two neighbors bought FL washers in the Fall of 2005 here post Katrina and have already had the units scrapped out due to corroded spiders; and the washers were just thrown away as fecal matter; ie junked since not cost effective.

Folks remember the dogma about FL saving water; but have that recent sour taste after scrapping that 700 to 1000 buck FL washer with a broken spider. ie the FL washer never paid for itself; thus they swear and buy a new top loader.

Many folks once "burned" by a short lived FL: washer often buy a TL washer' or another FL washer and just plan on it only lasting 3 to 5 years.

 

[limey]

Reply to COMBO52

Thank you for your response and comments but you still have not answered the question: ‘How does too little detergent cause corrosion of the spider?’ You accuse me of not being helpful but I have now posed this question several times and not received an answer. Even ‘I don’t know’ would, in my opinion, be more helpful than just ignoring it.
I have attempted to explain how I believe corrosion of these spiders can occur, and how, in a like manner, one of the sources of the foul odours experienced with these machines occurs. Should you be unable to understand my reasoning, I regret that, but unless you tell me what you do not understand about my reasoning I cannot help you understand.

Thank you for clarify your experience numbers, I have to confess I missed the difference between ‘appliances’ and ‘washers TL & FL’, my apologies. Just for the record 3,000 plus appliances per year, using the limitations I outlined above, and you agreed to, gives an average time of less than 40 minutes per appliance.

 

[limey]

Response to 3beltwesty

Thank you for your response.
Before we proceed any further I believe I should reiterate that I do not believe that the corrosion of the spiders is due to galvanic corrosion.
I agree, that should there be a galvanic reaction between the stainless steel and the aluminium alloy spider it would more complex than a simple cell. However even in complex reactions it really comes down to two, or more, reactions happening at the same time. Some of the reactions may be dependant on another reaction being completed, or in progress, before it/they can start.
I do not believe it makes much difference if a galvanic couple is totally immersed or ‘just wetted’. The essentials for a galvanic couple, as I understand it, are two materials (not necessarily metals, although they usually are), which have different electrical potentials when in contact with an electrolyte. The electrolyte has to be in contact with both materials.
One thing that did surprise me in the paper, I reference above is, ‘corrosion can occur without components of different metals actually being in electrical contact‘. I had always thought otherwise. However should they be in electrical contact the vast majority of the corrosion will take place at, or very close to that ‘electrical contact’.

With reference to your example of the fence posts or pier piles, I agree with you about the location of the maximum amount of corrosion but here we are not considering, I believe, galvanic corrosion, particularly with respect to the fence posts. The pier piles, if of steel, in seawater, yes, galvanic corrosion is a very real possibility.

 

[limey]

Response to 3beltwesty

Thank you for your response.
Before we proceed any further I believe I should reiterate that I do not believe that the corrosion of the spiders is due to galvanic corrosion.
I agree, that should there be a galvanic reaction between the stainless steel and the aluminium alloy spider it would more complex than a simple cell. However even in complex reactions it really comes down to two, or more, reactions happening at the same time. Some of the reactions may be dependant on another reaction being completed, or in progress, before it/they can start.
I do not believe it makes much difference if a galvanic couple is totally immersed or ‘just wetted’. The essentials for a galvanic couple, as I understand it, are two materials (not necessarily metals, although they usually are), which have different electrical potentials when in contact with an electrolyte. The electrolyte has to be in contact with both materials.
One thing that did surprise me in the paper, I reference above is, ‘corrosion can occur without components of different metals actually being in electrical contact‘. I had always thought otherwise. However should they be in electrical contact the vast majority of the corrosion will take place at, or very close to that ‘electrical contact’.

With reference to your example of the fence posts or pier piles, I agree with you about the location of the maximum amount of corrosion but here we are not considering, I believe, galvanic corrosion, particularly with respect to the fence posts. The pier piles, if of steel, in seawater, yes, galvanic corrosion is a very real possibility.

 

[combo52]

REASON TOO LITTLE DETERGENT

causes corrosion. This is becasuse too little detergent allows MINERALS, DIRT and OILS to cling to all the parts of the washer that are exposed to water. When you get a buildup on the cast aluminum it keeps it wet all the time and corrision sets in and conintues un checked. This has been gone over many times on here by many different people, it's getting old. Do you want me to explain what detergent does?

 

Limey you need to prove your theories, instead of stirring the pot. I have the proof of thousands of washers that I have either seen fail or survive. Experience trumps theories.

 

[3beltwesty]

COMBO52: RE "TOO LITTLE DETERGENT causes corrosion."

Basically this really makes no sense at all. Maybe it is you odd joke; your you have never used a FL washer?

Here my family has used front loaders since 1947 and one always has used the least amount of detergent required to the wash job.

Through out my entire life it is my experience that folks who grew up with top loaders tend to use GOBS of DETERGENT; so much that if they vist; the whole laundry room gets flooded.

*ALL* the "top load" folks who I know who got front loaders in America's 2nd FL wave post 1993 went through the learning curve of massive overuse of detergents; ie their brains wants to use that old 2 heaping cups of soap like it is still 1965.

I know friends who's wives still tend to use massive amounts of detergents with front loaders, theses are the machines I know that got broken spiders via corroded aluminum.

Thus here is it my experience here locally where friends and neighbors have FL washers with smells and broken spiders all were folks who tended to use GOBS of detergents; the exact opposite of your odd claim.

Do I have to explain that GOBS of detergent leaves leftover deposits too?

It is my experience that folks who use too my detergent have more problems with washer smells and broken spiders; not the opposite.

Maybe the exact opposite of viewpoints is due to water. Here the water is super soft. If somebody vists there is so much soap already in their unwashed clothes that one GETS SUDS without using ANY SOAP AT ALL! ie these folks are folks who use too much detergent; ie the average American

 

[3beltwesty]

It is my experience that folks who use too MUCH detergent have more problems with washer smells and broken spiders; not the opposite.

 

[alr2903]

It would be nice if owners of vintage combination washer/dryers would weigh in on the spider, and mold issues,  i know they  were very frugal with water (at least in the washing phase).  IIRC  detergents rec.  using 1/3 cup of detergent for a full load.  I think there were different designs, i remember Robert's post about that troublesome hose in his huge old vintage whirlpool, if i understood correctly as soon as the water sprayed in the drum it drained right back to the little tank with the "suds window". I thought it might add another dimension to the conversation, especially machines that are mostly used to wash and not dry.  alr2903

 

[limey]

Reply to COMBO52

Thank you for your enlightening response, it seems quite plausible.
Certainly any laundry debris left around inside the washer and allowed to fester is eventually going to stink. Additionally the possibility is there that is festering mess will cause corrosion of anything it comes in contact with, provided, of course, it is corrosive to that substance, perhaps not immediately but as the concentration of the ‘mix’ you describe increases it might reach a point where corrosion of aluminum will occur. Are your aware of any studies, reports or anything else that can substantiate this corrosion theory?

 

[limey]

Detergent Overdosing

To 3beltwesty.
On the subject of over dosing with detergent I believe this has been going on since the introduction of detergents for laundry. Previously, according to my parents and grandparents when soap was used the amount of ‘suds’ indicated the reserve of soap left.
Certainly back when I was a lad, after Adam and Nelson time, the standard test for boiler water hardness was the Wanklyn Standard Soap Test. This consisted of taking a measured sample of the water to be tested and adding Wanklyn’s Standard Soap solution until, after vigorous shaking, a lather was maintained for a specified time and noting how much ‘soap’ had been used to achieve this. Must be getting old, I cannot remember the numbers now.
I have heard from several sources that the suds one sees from detergents are ‘cosmetic’ and serve no purpose other than keeping the consumer happy. I know a lot of our friends and relatives still want to see ‘suds’ to know that the detergent is ‘working’. Trying to tell them is like ….well I leave it to you.

 

[limey]

Spider Corrosion and Foul Smells

To COMBO52
As some time has now passed since I asked if you had any evidence to corroborate your theory regarding insufficient detergent causing corrosion of the alumininium alloy spiders and you have not responded I can only conclude one of two things, either: -
1. You have no such evidence
2. You have the evidence but are unwilling to share it.
In either event let us examine your theory, and my experience, limited though it may be and as you say, ‘Experience trumps theories’.
First I would refer you to my first post (#443313 in thread number 29110) on this site in which I said
“I believe the mechanics of the corrosion are as follows.
Even after the fastest spin small quantities of water will remain on the shaft and towards the centre of the spider. Any recesses in the spider close to the centre will aggravate this situation. This water will contain very, very small quantities of laundry aids used, soil from the laundry and chemicals from the ‘tap’ water. Should this water be allowed to stand the water will evaporate until such time as sufficient has gone to allow the pH of the remaining mixture to rise above the threshold at which corrosion will occur.
Additionally the retained water will quickly become foul smelling leading to, I believe, many of the complaints about mold and mildew.”
The difference between your theory and mine would therefore appear to be the fact that I believe unused laundry aids, please note the plural, would be present in the mixture left at the end of the last rinse cycle whereas, your theory would preclude any detergent being present. My ‘soil’ would, I believe, include your ‘MINERALS, DIRT and OILS’ so we appear to agree on that point. I fully agree with you any soil left anywhere in the machine will eventually start to smell.
In post #445529 in thread 29110 I enclosed a photograph which, for ease of reference, I will post here. This was removed from a 4.5 year old machine because of the smell and bearing failure.
In your post #446219 in thread 29110 you state, “Limey the corrosion on your spiders is more of a hard water build up from using to little detergent. Neither of the spiders you showed us have experienced any type of failure. Your machines had water seal failures which allowed water to ruin the bearings.” The spider shown below has no hard water build up just the smelly ‘crud’ about the hub, which was easily removed with a pressure washer. Incidentally there was no corrosion beneath the ‘crud’ only the very, very small marks seen as ‘white’ spots on the spider below. Neither was there any build-up of ‘crud’ anywhere else in the machine. As I said elsewhere in thread 29110 I do not know how you diagnosed seal failure on this machine, or why, there was no evident of seal failure and, more importantly to me, no evidence of water ingress into the bearing housing. Therefore I believe your diagnosis is incorrect on three points.
1. No seal failure.
2. As there was no crud anywhere else in the machine, other than the hub. You have stated in this thread, ``REASON TOO LITTLE DETERGENT causes corrosion. This is becasuse too little detergent allows MINERALS, DIRT and OILS to cling to all the parts of the washer that are exposed to water.``. Clearly, in this case, that theory is disproved.
3. There was no corrosion associated with the `crud`, so had the formation of the `crud` been due to `too little detergent`, according to your theory there should have been corrosion associated with the `crud`.
Now as to the sister-in-law who owns that machine using to little detergent, most unlikely, wants to see `suds`, too much detergent, in my view, highly likely. See my post 502189 in this thread above.
Do I believe your theory is totally without merit, most definitely not. However it does need more thought, and qualification of blanket statements. For example, too little detergent plus overdosing with liquid fabric softeners based on plants, and exclusive use of cold water could, I believe give rise to the conditions you have described, but for ‘crud’ and smell only, likely no corrosion. This scenario however, without further qualification, does not, in my opinion, give conditions to promote corrosion, an ingredient with sufficient alkalinity, or acidity, is required before chemical corrosion of the aluminum will occur.
Please note that in thread 29110 several posters seemed to forget that is not just bleach, but anything with the required acidity or alkalinity, that will cause corrion of the aluminium spiders.
I would appreciate your comments on this. Thank you.

 

[limey]

Corrosion and Smells

To 3 beltwesty.
The last paragraph of your post #502126: -
‘Maybe the exact opposite of viewpoints is due to water. Here the water is super soft. If somebody vists there is so much soap already in their unwashed clothes that one GETS SUDS without using ANY SOAP AT ALL! ie these folks are folks who use too much detergent; ie the average American’
got me thinking.
I therefore offer the following as a discussion point and would welcome any comments, pro or con.
Sodium carbonate, washing soda, is present in all the powdered detergents that I have checked the MSDS for, also in the powdered ‘Oxi’ products and ‘Affresh’. Sodium carbonate is a ‘water softener’ it reacts with the hardness salts to form largely insoluble compounds. Now in ‘soft water’ there are very few ‘hardness salts’ and should a laundry aid containing sodium carbonate have been used there will likely be some excess sodium carbonate in the washing water, with nothing to do. This solution of sodium carbonate will not be completely removed from the laundry and thus the final rinse water will contain very small quantities of sodium carbonate. Small quantities of the final rinse water will be left in some areas of the machine (the recesses of the spider hub) and as the water evaporates the concentration of sodium carbonate increases to a point where corrosion of the aluminium can occur. This could also explain why some people believe water softeners cause corrosion of the spiders

 

[limey]

Seal & Bearing Failure, Which Came First?

To COMBO52
I believe the photographs in this thread give sufficient evidence that there is a deposit on the spider and the centre area of the back of the drum. I further believe that using the dictionary definition of ‘mineral’ as ‘anything not animal or plant’ then these deposits are ‘mineral’. (Using that definition it could also be applied to the ’crud’ shown in the photographs of a machine I worked on shown in threads 29110 and 33198, therefore, my apologies for saying they were not ‘mineral’).
Now how have you deduced that the deposits in this Miele case are caused by too little detergent?
Bearing in mind your faulty diagnosis of seal failure leading to bearing failure in the case of the machine I worked on described in thread 29110. How have you deduced that in this Miele failure case the initial failure was by the seal and not the bearings? Quite honestly how can you be so adamant is beyond me.
I look forward to your comments

 

[3beltwesty]

Europe's washers operate in a colder area than the USA&

It would be interesting to plot where folks live with FL washers that smell.

If one just looks at Latitude of Europes Folks versus the USA as a crude indicator of temperature, Europe is way farther north than the USA.

Switerland is about the same Latitude as Maine.

Sicily is about the same latitude as Washington DC.

Iraq is about the same latitude as me here in the USA ; about 30 degrees.

Rome is about roughly the same latitude as the middle of the USA.

Europe is a colder area than than much of the USA

 

[foraloysius]

Good heavens! What nonsense! In a lot of European households the washing machine is in a heated area like a kitchen or a bathroom.

 

[pierreandreply4]

and 1 thing that can also cause this is the humidety of the clothe like a washe load thats been wash and then forgoten in the washer but i for one never had bad smell and my washer is near an outside wall

 

[3beltwesty]

Pscychrometric chart

RE "Good heavens! What nonsense! In a lot of European households the washing machine is in a heated area like a kitchen or a bathroom. "

Adding heat with a heater just drops the humidity.

If it is 10C and 50 % Relative Humidity outside and you use a heater; the same room when at 20C is now a dry 28 percent.

Heating moves horizontal on the chart.

Look at the VW Beatle car; cool Europe had little if any issues with the number 3 cylinder,and the damn things would burn up over here. Thus the "fix" was often retarding the number 3 cylinder, adding more blowers for cars run in hotter areas. The oil cooler is in the flow of cooling air to number 3. Folks in Europe can say the problem never existed. But they moved the oil cooler away from #3 due to complaints in NON European areas; ie where failures were a lot higher.

 

[3beltwesty]

If you turn the heater so it is 25C then your RH drops to 20 percent