It's all here.
Hi All,
As promised, I have come to a resolution following hours of research, watching my washer run with a flashlight, and taking pages upon pages of notes. It's moved way beyond the personal realm-- these problems are more global in scope. I have tried my best to leave no stone unturned. First I'll start by ruling out the basic theories and then give you some real meat to sink your teeth into.
Quick recap: My LG FL washer has been pilling my clothes and it's worse the past few months, causing misshapen crew neck collars, and failing to remove some odors and grime.
Theory#1 : Underloading
From "Laundry, The Home Comforts Book of Caring for Clothes and Linens" by Cheryl Mendelson
Load size:
For optimal cleaning and a balanced machine, every load should be mixed with large and small items.
At a minimum you should have what your machine designates as a small load.
Overloading leads to far more damage, detergent build-up, unloosened soil and pilling.
I have been well within the normal range for load size, according to both LG and Samsung for comparison. LG actually recommends Permanent Press, Delicates, and Handwashing specifically for small loads. I have always used Perm Press and mix both small and large items, similar fabrics. The machine has not shown signs of any trouble balancing when I observe the cycles. The Speed Wash setting is designed for 2-3 items but I don't use it. The purple shirt (attached) and two other items did not fully rinse even using a tiny amount of detergent so I have no plans to use it in the future either.
Theory #2 Use more detergent or fabric softener, it lubricates
The problem with this is the small amount of detergent I am using (dropped from 2 tbsp to 1.5-2 tsp) isn't rinsing out. It's easy to test if you air dry various items and they are crunchy once dried. You probably won't notice if you put everything in the dryer because it softens the residue. I tried natural Ms. Meyers (crunchy), Persil Liquid (much crunchier) and Tide Powder (crunchiest). Trying different water temperatures and even adding an extra rinse or two made very little to no difference. Since I've used Ms. Meyers for so long I can attest to it's ability to leave the fibers more pliable and easier rinsing while the commercial brands are harder to rinse and really stiffen up garments. I actually found my whites turning grey after switching to Tide Free liquid for a short stint.
Theory #3 LG machines don't add enough water at certain points in the cycle
I have observed items tumbling while covered in patchy bubbles of soap and still dry in most places. I can't imagine that a concentrated product sitting on top is very good for fabric undergoing friction or allows the soap to begin doing it's job. It makes sense to saturate the load with water first. I had also noticed soap suds at the beginning of the spin cycle. Some LG models actually have a "Water Plus" setting that adds a gallon to both the wash and rinse. Users of this feature commented that it had made a major difference in the overall cleanliness and rinsing ability. It would be nice if that were standard. LG told me that some models had recently had a problem with not enough water during certain cycles, but my model was not included in that bulletin. To increase water they recommended washing items on the Bulk Cycle, adding rinses or setting the soil level higher. I've had poor results even with multiple rinses. Even using the Bulk, after running three Tub Clean cycles, my pillow cases still air-dried stiff from residue but straight out of the wash everything felt and looked cleaner to me and there had been very few suds before spinning than in previous washes. It's really eye-opening to see tons of suds right before it goes into spin.
Theory #4 Use hotter water to dissolve detergent and the fibers can flex better
I just can't. Most of my items are natural fibers labeled cold wash only. Even my 100% linen sheets are not supposed to be washed in anything but cold. Plus, the elastic on synthetics would get broken down very quickly. Supposedly the new detergents wash just as well in cold so that some retailers have changed their care instructions from warm to cold.
Theory #5 Switch to powder, it cleans better
This is completely dependent on the type of soil you are dealing with. From "Home Comforts": Granular works better on mud and dirt stains because it uses "builders" for its power. Liquid detergents rely on surfactants and excel at organic stains like blood, gravy, and grass. Liquid detergents also dissolve more readily in cold water whereas powders, unless specially formulated, will not. Also, according to a textile scientist, liquids are better at removing body oils, fat and food stains. These are my main concerns. Powder is said to contribute to pilling in some cases. I also found that the Tide powder was the most difficult to rinse of any I tried and the Sears technician recommended liquid. Again, it depends on the type of soil you are dealing with. If I worked with cars or in landscaping, I would likely try something else. It's also really important, at least with LG, to pretreat odors and stains. I'm now using a pet enzyme spray for proteins (saw in an Amazon review), acidic water from my Kangen alkalizing water machine to spot kill odor-causing bacteria, and LA's Best Stain Remover Spray.
Before I go any further, a few points should be addressed pertaining to the subjective nature of this topic. The first is that everyone has a different idea about what "clean" is. For some, it's the smell of Tide, dryer sheets, and no visible stains or dinginess for example. A lot of times it's connected to sensory impressions dating back to childhood. Some people have a poor sense of smell so they simply can't tell. If you don't have body odor that's half the battle. Our visual acuity and sense of smell can drastically decrease with age. It's also based on experience. Even if you can't see the remains of a stain, the proteins and oils could still be left on the fabric. So clean is a construct, based on perception-- it's psychological. While it's also true that "clean" in actuality smells like nothing at all.
Since none of us are conducting rigorous scientific tests on the machine's performance we can't say with any certainty that it cleans well-- it's more like "it cleans well enough". In the case of this washer, when put under the lens of scientific scrutiny it is rated above average but not excellent. The Sidekick fairs even poorer on Reviewed.com with stains like blood, sweat, and dirt frequently left behind while being gentler on clothing.
Reviewed.com Methodology :
http://laundry.reviewed.com/how_we_test
And lastly, even if you've had no problems with your particular HE FL machine, there are still other variables at play besides what I've already mentioned. Your laundry itself could look very different than mine, from the fabrics to the type of soiling you experience. The technologies vary greatly. LG for example has the 6-Motion tumbling and Turbowash which reduces cycle time, which may or may not be more aggressive than similar processes in your washer. These machines are computerized, incredibly complex systems, so following the maxim "As above so below", the solution itself is an interconnected web of variables working harmoniously.
My own lint test seems to indicate that Turbowash is significantly harder on fabrics than a regular cycle, producing about 3+ times as much lint in the dryer for the same laundry. I have attached pictures of the end results of washing a teal linen coverlet and white linen sheets + cases on both settings. Linen is highly durable and not a textile known for linting. I can't be sure, but I think I might have deactivated Turbowash for the first several months of use just because I thought it sounded like an unnecessary and harsh setting.
Moving on, let's talk about detergent. If you read other washer manuals you'll quickly find out that appliance and detergent manufacturers can't seem to agree on HOW MUCH TO USE. Detergent makers are certainly not going to tell you to use a minuscule amount because that's a conflict of interest, especially since HE detergent sales have been plummeting. A 20 year appliance veteran at Best Buy laughed and said NEVER follow the detergent instructions. GE's FL manual says to use the amount instructed on the detergent label. LG's official stance is to use half that. A Sears Technician told us LG recommends only 2 tablespoons per load. Their dispenser holds 5 to the line. A popular cleaning blog, "The Spruce" says to use only 2 tsp maximum per load. Throw into the mix the 3X, 8X, 10X concentrated (marketing gimmicks), natural detergents, and high viscosity detergents, and you have a logistical nightmare no one is even aware of.
This is key: I was told by the Best Buy expert mentioned earlier that THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE FOR MACHINE FAILURE IS DETERGENT RESIDUE. When she worked for the repair department she saw how technicians would take apart the machines and they were filled with gunk in locations no one would ever expect, even the bearings. Basically anywhere susceptible to water would also be filled with detergent residue.
LG said not only can residue in the tub (meaning on the other side, that you can't see or feel) throw off the sensors which makes balancing difficult but that can result in EXCESSIVE friction on the clothes. To further complicate matters cold washes could easily contribute to more machine residue. How many people are actually regularly running Tub Clean? My guess is, not many. I just had a friend come to visit and she has never run Tub Clean in 6+ years. Especially when units usually come with homes and Americans move frequently. Even if you DO read the manual, LG downplays it in my opinion by making it sound like it's only necessary if you use excess detergent, or have the unit located in a humid space (to prevent mold and mildew). While LG officially "recommends" it monthly, GE's manual makes it mandatory... "should be run at a minimum every month to control the rate of accumulation of soils and detergent." GE even has a 2X and 3X HE detergent setting in their dispenser tray on some models.
For my own viscosity test I dipped my pinky finger into three different liquid detergents, rubbed my hands together vigorously and timed how long it took to wash them off. Ms. Meyers and Tide Free took only 7 secs to fully rinse off with no residue. Arm & Hammer came in second at 15, but left a patchy, sticky residue even after it dried. Persil took a good 30+ seconds and it never felt like it was fully rinsed, leaving an even nastier slick feeling dry. Taking into account the hardness or softness of water, this could vary somewhat.
Obviously, the optimal amount of detergent is going to be relative to its viscosity and how concentrated it is-- that's going to have a huge impact on the amount of water needed, cleaning, and rinsability. Now we're getting into something about as abstract as derivatives to most people. I also read that these detergents are designed to soak or sit for a considerable amount of time. If you use a shorter cycle (like Turbowash) the results might be less than optimal. LG even points out in their manual that some detergents are difficult to dissolve or have high viscosity which will leave a residue on the tub and may not rinse properly. Well, how in the world is the average person going to know their detergent is "high viscosity"? The two industries really need to work together to fix a basic lack of communication on the issue.
To remove any build-up we ran Tub Clean three times with Affresh tablets like LG recommends. I'm sure that probably helped. It's only when I got the brand new Sidekick washing pedestal did I realize the detergent concentration/viscosity/lack of rinsing were the main culprits in pilling. It's a tale of two sweatshirts...
When we had the Sidekick installed by "Geeks" from Best Buy they reversed the hot and cold water hoses. So we had warm/hot-ish water running for both the wash and rinse cycle when it should have washed in warm and rinsed in cold. I did a full load with Persil, using 1 tsp LG advised (absolute max being 2 tsp). Despite the higher temperature which should have dissolved the soap, I was appalled that my cotton clothes were more pilled than ever. The Sidekick is also supposed to be gentler than the FL-- it uses 3-Motion technology as opposed to the 6, and the clothes sit in a few inches of water. One of the items I washed was a black cotton French terry sweatshirt. It's not something I wear often because I tend to wear the hoodie version by the same designer. When I pulled it out it was so visibly deteriorated my eyes nearly popped out of my head. It air-dried stiff as a board. I have attached pictures of both-- same age, fabric, but the hoodie in great condition had only ever been washed in Ms. Meyers on cold. When I had put the Persil on the load I remembered that it was like tar. It's no wonder it failed to wash out. I read one suggestion was to use a 1:3 ratio of detergent to warm water. When I asked LG if we could dilute the detergent in warm water before adding it to the dispenser, to my surprise, this was not recommended. Despite the fact that it's ok for LG users to mix 1 tsp detergent to 2 tsp bleach in the tray. Definitely worth trying nonetheless.
And this is something the product reviewers are missing the boat on completely...Despite all their heavy handed scientific testing especially on stains, both Reviewed.com and Consumer Reports DO NOT HAVE A RINSE TEST. A CR author replied to a Facebook commentor who pointed this out at the end of her article saying "Good Point. We're working on developing a rinse test." That was March, and we've had these HE washers since 2010?
In the real world in real time, poor rinsing translates to build-up on clothes and the machine, dinginess, damage to fibers and subsequent pilling. It's also a magnet for dirt. My sweatshirt and tees demonstrated an acceleration of that process. In all likelihood they aren't testing different detergents either, but relying exclusively on an industry standard, "AHAM HLW-2010 Formula III" or something similar.
The question for washer manufacturers is how much they prioritize thorough rinsing in their own labs. I'm sure they are much more concerned with energy standards.
Returning to those water levels...I had never come across the idea that water levels could decrease over time until I read a Consumer Reports review on a Whirlpool. Apparently (at least for that model) the Clean Washer setting resets the water to "factory settings"...EVERY TIME. Attached a screen shot of that. So Whirlpool has deemed this enough of a problem to regularly reset the water. I found a similar reboot for LG online (another screenshot), but there is no mention of it in the manual and the rep could find nothing about that in his search. When I pressed LG about it, they denied that the water levels could change. Of course if the controls get glitchy why rule out that it could affect water levels? Since Best Buy is sending a tech out I'm going to see if he'll check that before resetting the machine.
And lastly, regarding the misshapen collars on crewnecks. It's not a fabrication issue, they are simply being stretched out in the washer. LG said it was partly due to agitation, but recommended using low spin. Another LG rep said it was caused by detergent residue or the sensors being thrown off resulting in excessive agitation. This is another problem which has gotten worse over time besides the pilling. Again, if I was in fact deactivating the default Turbowash setting the first several months which seems to be more aggressive in its agitation, that could explain a lot.
So far I haven't used the Sidekick much but I think with the right detergent it's going to do a pretty good job. When I've had stiff residue caked items from the FL go in the Sidekick to wash the residue (without any added soap) they come out softer. I believe the soaking plays a big part. I can also tell the clothes hold their shape better. I mainly bought it for delicate items anyway.
Overall, I still can't say I love these machines, but LG is still the best of the commercial brands. Maybe with some workarounds it will be doable. As for my experience with Best Buy for the Sidekick, and Sears for the FL, both have been great. If you're shopping around Best Buy will do a price matching with any retailer. Since their Geeks screwed up on the installation, we got a $100 gift card. They had already given us $40 for the Sidekick arriving with a small ding. To sweeten the deal, if their techs have to come out for repairs three times and the issue still isn't resolved, they will replace the appliance at no charge. They also ensure nothing goes into the landfill but is recycled instead.
I hope everyone benefits from this information, regardless of whether you have the problems mentioned. A regular Tub Clean and conservative amounts of detergent could greatly extend the life of your machine and keep your clothes in top condition. Taking a more scientific approach has turned an emotional roller coaster into something far more interesting and rewarding than I ever expected. At least it provides answers to one of the original questions on this thread--why performance varies so much from person to person, even among similar machines.
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