Gas Stoves and Indoor Pollution

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I think propane tanks up to 100 lbs are an acceptable risk.  If say someone wanted  to cook or use  a Bar-b-q, or fireplace once in a while.  

 

We obviously have limits on what is acceptable.  We don't allow people to buy uranium in easy open packages from the gas stations.  We don't allow the easy access to buying mercury in packs of 3 for $10.  Nor do we produce Chlorine Triflouride for kids to use in at home chemistry sets (though maybe in the 50s they did).

 

Leaded gas isn't made anymore.

 

We change.  We improve. 

 

The problem with piped in gas is you potentially have an unlimited supply.  With propane, if an empty home sat for say 4 months and had a small leak and it filled the home, it would fill until the tank was empty and then by infiltration that gas would be diluted. 

If it were a piped service it would fill and fill until inevitably a fire source ignited the gas and it would explode.
 
Checked mine closer to see about the flame

And will make adjustments by loosing the screw. (Pic of adjusting vent on burner)
Also shown is the flame..I do see some flickers on orange? Maybe a little more cleaning is needed.
Not bad for a 100 year old stove.
Due to this thread, Ill be more conscious.. or maybe unconscious if the gas gets me!😂

stan-2020051718040309340_1.jpg

stan-2020051718040309340_2.jpg
 
Gas burner adjustments

Hi Stan, basically open up the shutters as much as possible till just before the flame starts to blow away from the burner or gets noisy.

 

Little flecks of orange are just bits of dust etc being burned, if you blow on or around a gas flame you see this happen, if the flame has yellow-orange tips that is too little air or too much gas for the burner.

 

John L.
 
I’ve adjusted the burner before on my Maytag DG306 I restored last year and and the burner seems to be more noisy and when the shutter is opened up more and seems to be quieter when partially closed. Adjusted it back to the way is was before when I got it and referenced a photo I took of the burner shutter when I first got it
 
Over a year ago my gas fired water heater stopped working. Had to take a shower at my neighbor's the next day. At my first opportunity I checked out the heater, which is safely out of the house in an enclosed but well ventilated patio area and vented straight up through the patio roof. Turned out some thing clogged the pilot light - it was out. After cleaning the pilot jet and running some gas through the valve, it's been working just fine again. One thing the line there lacks is a little drop tube just before the flex line to the heater, to catch any debris that might happen along. It's on my 2do list.

So yeah, natural gas can have dust and stuff in it that makes the flame vary from blue. But it should be blue nearly all the time.

Anybody besides me remember the California electricity crisis of the early 21st century? And the rolling blackouts? Gas ranges sure came in handy during that time, eh?
 
Thanks guys, for the info. I was always taught that flames should be 100% blue. Glad to now I was taught right :-)

When I was young my grandmother's stove (Bengal?) with a vented heater would occasionally need burner adjustments as did the previous ones. You'd start seeing yellow and orange flames. G'ma wouldn't use the burner and get my grandfather. There was one type of adjustment he'd make (I was too young to understand what that was. I'd guess the shutters.) and if that didn't solve the problem he'd tell her not to use that burner and call the gas company for someone to come and fix/adjust it.

Coal and other old tech. A problem is that as time goes by the accumulation of knowledge is lost. In the 90's I taught in an NYC public school that was heated by coal. I only knew that because I saw the coal ash in can waiting to be picked up. The school had a full-time Fire Man specifically licensed to run that type of coal fired boiler. The basement was immaculate. On cold Monday mornings teachers would actually come down and eat their lunch in the boiler room because it was warm. The room was utterly immaculate. Not one spec of dust not one hint of odor. Not once not ever....

A few years later NYC decided to replace all the coal fired boilers with gas. Apparently many of the coal boilers were not properly maintained and there were all sorts of problems that were hidden under the rug. Guess what? Not one of the schools that had problems had a full time licensed Fire Man. ALL the schools that did had zero problems. It was explained to me that fewer guys bothered to get that certification as the years went by. However the number of such boilers was shrinking at a slower rate. Therefore such guys were in demand and were able to find jobs that paid more than the NYC Board of Ed. Hence the lack of qualified people to run such boilers so problems arose.

Same applies to low-pressure one-pipe steam heat in the northeast. The dearth of properly trained people has resulted in a whole generation that has no clue that steam heat is supposed to be almost silent. There's a thread on that somewhere. I may have ranted a bit on it.........

I don't think old systems should be taken out of service/ made illegal, etc. But I DO think solar with battery back-up should be much more heavily subsidized and be more widespread.
 
Reply #85

I remember my mom saying the price of electricity all of a sudden skyrocketed in the years 2000, and before that the price of electricity was fairly reasonable before the price skyrocketed in 2000. The current house I live in has solar and our electric bill even in the summertime with the air conditioner running is below $100 and there are times where it is a little over $100 but it’s not all that common anymore since solar has brought our bill way down compared to before we got solar.
 
"I've got 6 CO detectors and they never go off"

 

How many nitrogen dioxide detectors do you have?  Pritdang toxic, specially in an enclosed environment where it can build up.  I'm not adendizing.  Gas has its place.  I'd dread the cost of electric house and water heat.  But if you're going to burn the stuff in your kitchen, at least skim this wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_dioxide
 
Gas and earthquakes

Well, I always loved gas. I also have an induction cooktop that is great, but anyway, I still prefer gas, i love GAS, recently I discovered the wonders of having a GAS grill for the first time in my life (In Brazil everybody has the grill "built" with bricks, the only grills you find to purchase are those silly cheap portable charcoal ones that are tiny and the only american style grills you find there are imported and absurdly expensive)

Anyway, back to gas.

I've never had any issues with my gas stove.
But i had 2 serious issues with my infamous wall furnace.
almost 4 years ago, when i moved into this apartment the CO alarms went off in the middle of the night. It turned out that during a repair not related to the heater the vent duct was literally kicked off it's place and ended up blocked.

About a month ago the second incident: I learned the worst way how things can change in less than 3-seconds.

As we always say here, we're so used to earthquakes that anything below 5.0 magnitude, we just grab our mug to avoid spilling the coffee. What I never experienced before was being in the epicenter or a 3.5 earthquake. Theoretically it's nothing, just a "hiccup". Nah... wrong!

The "silly 3.5" jolt was enough to make a disaster here. bathroom window broke, my kitchenaid bowl lift stand mixer fell from the counter, my computer monitor (that is glued with museum wax) fell from the desk and the two front panels of the infamous Williams wall furnace fell.

During the fall, the furnace front panel in the living room side broke the gas line. Thank God I wasn't smoking right at that moment.

I was still under my desk mentally counting those 30 seconds after an earthquake to then stand up when i heard that loud hissing. It took no more than 5 seconds to have the whole house smelling really bad like gas.

That nighti realized 5 things:

1) I need to install emergency lights. It was midnight and we had a blackout for like 2-3 minutes right when the earthquake happened.
2) The seismic valve did absolutely nothing. The jolt wasn't strong enough to trigger it.
3) Now matter how conscious and proactive we are, I'm constantly checking everything regarding safety prevention is #1 rule in my house, but there will always be a surprise factor.
4) That silly and inexpensive earthquake survival gas valve wrench that I never thought someday I'd use (but anyway I bought it and had it zip tied to the gas meter outside) was the star of the night. My house was saved by a tool that costed 80 cents.
5) Knowing your house helps a lot, but be aware that everything can change in seconds. The first obstacle was finding my cell phone in the dark so I could use the screen as a flashlight to find my slippers that were right next to me. then the furnace front panel in my bedroom floor, it fell right on the way out. I kicked it and almost fell.

All that said, I am more than aware there are dangers involving gas from poisoning to explosion, the same way there are dangers using electricity even a stupid Werther's candy can kill somebody.

When I build my own house, I'll definitely go way beyond the codes to make it even safer. As a designer, I LOVE to overdimension all systems so they can be way more reliable.

Wall furnace, NO WAY! I hate that thing. Landlord and I regret he got rid of the original cast iron radiators this apartment had. Every winter is that mexican soap opera with part of my bedroom hot like an oven and the other side freezing cold because this darn thing doesn't distribute the hot air evenly and people even think I'm sick or crazy because I set the thermostat to 90 and I keep feeling Like I'm going to freeze to death.

Gas stove? YES, PLEASE! I may have an induction cooktop that i love for some things but I'll never get rid of my gas stove.

To make things even better, When I bought this stove it wasn't what I wanted. I was completely in love with a Samsung model but it was way above my budget limit, so I ended up with the Kenmore Elite I have that was way below the budget I said it was ok because I didn't want to hurt Darryl's feelings and it seemed like he really liked that stove and when we bought it we couldn't afford anything better and I didn't want him to feel "emasculated" for not being able to afford a super fancy model. It turned out this "neh" stove is simply the very best stove I've ever had. Now I love it so much I'd probably kiss it and I hope it lasts for many decades and I've always had premium stoves (Thermador, Aga, Bosch, Electrolux Icon), this is my first time with a "budget" model, coincidentally made by Electrolux.

If you don't want to use gas, that's OK, it's a free country, you can do whatever you want in YOUR house but please, don't start this bullshit saying that gas stoves should be banned. I want to have the right to go to a store and buy a gas stove. Even the infamous wall furnace... Some people may love them, they may work in different constructions. They're not for me but that doesn't mean they should be banned.
 
Thomas,

I'm surprised a mere 3.5 shake could rupture a gas line. Was it at that infamous wall heater, or elsewhere? Good thing you got that shutoff wrench, and were home to shut off gas at the meter. I've done the same, that is, zip tied a special wrench by the gas line entering the house here.

A lot may depend on how close your structure is to the epicenter. Perhaps it was very close to your apartment?

I am currently dickering with my insurance agent about earthquake insurance. I did a seismic retrofit 20 years ago, but of course they have no record of it. I found my copy last Friday, and sent them a copy via fax and email. Haven't heard back yet. And of course the premium is due the 21st. I will have to call them mañana to see what's up.

I have this premonition that The Big One is going to hit our part of the state (Northern California) this year or in a few years. I haven't had earthquake insurance for 15 years now, but figure it's time to start it up again. Went with the 25% deductible, though, which means I'm out about $100,000 before the insurance starts to cover stuff. Almost not worth it. But if the seismic retrofit is reasonable enough might go with a lower deductible.

I did the retrofit myself; the city here has a program to guide homeowners through that, with lower cost permitting and inspection fees. It got to the point where I almost enjoyed just resting down in the crawl space after some hours of retrofit work, LOL. Not any more!
 
From Rick's link:

"Human-caused sources and exposure
For the general public, the most prominent sources of NO
2 are internal combustion engines burning fossil fuels.[8] Outdoors, NO
2 can be a result of traffic from motor vehicles.[17]

Indoors, exposure arises from cigarette smoke,[18] and butane and kerosene heaters and stoves.[19]"

If one is a cigarette smoker, probably better to focus on quitting that, than on gas stoves.

Just sayin...

Of course, using a range hood while cooking on a gas stove is a very good idea.

I'm also wondering what with better insulated and sealed modern homes, if heat exchanger equipped ventilation might not be a bad idea. I will try to see if there are any such products on the market. What I envision would be a unit like a window air conditioner that simply recovers heat from the inside while it brings in fresh air from the outside.
 
@sudsmaster

Yup... 3.5 is definitely "nothing" in terms of an Earthquake.
The epicenter was really close. It wasn't a big earthquake (actually it was literally one jolt only and 2-3 seconds of rolling) it sounded almost like a bomb instead of that "train" noise.

The earthquake itself didn't break the line. When the heater panel fell, one of the corners (sharp) got stuck in the line and the weight of the panel worked as a lever, making a hole on it. It's a super short line, like a stove line, that goes from the seismic valve to the furnace control valve.

When I came back inside, the panel was hanging at 45° and the only thing holding it was the gas line.

If the dogs didn't start barking like crazy seconds before, I wouldn't have dropped and covered under my desk (I'm glad I did it). The Shakealert went off with that annoying siren but as I am an Uber driver, it's mandatory to have the "public transportation" version of the shakealert that goes off for anything above magnitude 1.0. That darn thing goes off 50 times PER DAY and in two days I learned to simply ignore it.
Anyway, if I waited for the shakealert to do something I'd be in trouble because it went off 1 second AFTER the shaking. (at least the screen flashing like a strobe helped me find my phone in the dark). the initial alert was magnitude 4.1, 2 minutes later they corrected it to 3.5.

Other stupid thing about the shakealert, it looks like it first posts on Facebook and then the alert arrives to the phone. Other times it posts on Facebook the alert "only" 12 to 24 hours late. Other annoying thing is the alert comes in Spanish "Alerta Sismica" instead of "Seismic Alert" in English or at least both languages. It looks like they copied EVERYTHING from Mexico because it sounds exactly like the Mexican earthquake alert. I first thought it was something I could change in the app but no, they have only that tone.

........

The apartment i live is 100 years old but it was retrofitted after the Northridge earthquake. Before I signed the contract I made sure and let the real state agent know I wouldn't rent anything that hasn't been earthquake retrofitted.

Also, with the gentrification, this is one of the tricks the city hall use to make homeowners desperate to sell their properties for pennies to Asian investors. Earthquake retrofitting is MANDATORY in Los Angeles and it looks like every year they find a new thing to make mandatory (Unfortunately for most people it's impossible to keep up.) At this point, gentrification sucks. I can see my neighborhood is losing its personality, historical homes being demolished to give room for multi-family "boxes" You know... "Luxury" 2-bedroom apartments with open-concept kitchens, "real hardwood-looking" cheap laminate floors and stainless-steel Magic Chef or Panda appliances and so small that if you sneeze the windows explode (For "only" $5000 per month)

By the way, here in LA they now have a new hype word to match the open-concept kitchen: "Bistrô dining room", which is nothing more than a dining room so small that two people fit comfortably..... stacked on each other.
 
Thomas,

My mom moved into a quaint apartment complex in San Francisco in the 80's. It had steam heat that she loved. But after about five years the property owner realized they couldn't raise the rents (rent control) as much as they would have liked. At that point the building steam boiler required repairs. Instead of fixing it, the owner decided to rip it out and install gas fired space heaters. The problem for my mom is that instead of a steam radiator in a central part of her little apartment, the gas heater was affixed to a wall in the unit's entry hall, which is where the heat pretty much stayed. The plus for the property owner must have been no longer having to pay for the fuel to run the steam heat, because the gas heaters ran off the units' gas meters, which the tenants paid for. The inappropriate location of the gas heaters was probably in order to avoid having to put proper exhaust systems in the middle of the units - the entrance hall had a window into the complex open back stairwell, so it was easy just to exhaust the heater through that wall. Whenever I visited her in the winter she'd be bundled up and standing in that dim hallway in front of the damn gas heater. It kind of sucked.
 
using a range hood while cooking

Got it covered.  I use the range hood while smoking.  I only breathe the N<sub>2</sub>O once.

[this post was last edited: 5/19/2020-07:14]
 
My home is forced air gas, with the furnace down in the crawl space. There are two gas fired space heaters on the property: one a wall heater in the enclosed patio, the other in the 1,000 sq ft separate workshop. I've never turned either on, both are shut off at the gas line. I'm told the wall heater doesn't work, anyway. The enclosed patio is well ventilated so I've never been inclined to fix it so it could be started. The one in the workshop is an old big fan forced gas heater, mounted at what would be 8 ft ceiling height if there was a ceiling (exposed rafters). No idea if it works or not. That shop is also well ventilated, so heating it would be rather costly.

One warning: if you do your own gas or air line work, beware of Harbor Freight fittings. I've had a number of HF brass compressed air fittings fail because they cracked at the threads. The plated steel ones are OK.
 

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