Thank you Rick!
Gas Stoves and Indoor Pollution
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Gas and earthquakes
Well, I always loved gas. I also have an induction cooktop that is great, but anyway, I still prefer gas, i love GAS, recently I discovered the wonders of having a GAS grill for the first time in my life (In Brazil everybody has the grill "built" with bricks, the only grills you find to purchase are those silly cheap portable charcoal ones that are tiny and the only american style grills you find there are imported and absurdly expensive)
Anyway, back to gas.
I've never had any issues with my gas stove.
But i had 2 serious issues with my infamous wall furnace.
almost 4 years ago, when i moved into this apartment the CO alarms went off in the middle of the night. It turned out that during a repair not related to the heater the vent duct was literally kicked off it's place and ended up blocked.
About a month ago the second incident: I learned the worst way how things can change in less than 3-seconds.
As we always say here, we're so used to earthquakes that anything below 5.0 magnitude, we just grab our mug to avoid spilling the coffee. What I never experienced before was being in the epicenter or a 3.5 earthquake. Theoretically it's nothing, just a "hiccup". Nah... wrong!
The "silly 3.5" jolt was enough to make a disaster here. bathroom window broke, my kitchenaid bowl lift stand mixer fell from the counter, my computer monitor (that is glued with museum wax) fell from the desk and the two front panels of the infamous Williams wall furnace fell.
During the fall, the furnace front panel in the living room side broke the gas line. Thank God I wasn't smoking right at that moment.
I was still under my desk mentally counting those 30 seconds after an earthquake to then stand up when i heard that loud hissing. It took no more than 5 seconds to have the whole house smelling really bad like gas.
That nighti realized 5 things:
1) I need to install emergency lights. It was midnight and we had a blackout for like 2-3 minutes right when the earthquake happened.
2) The seismic valve did absolutely nothing. The jolt wasn't strong enough to trigger it.
3) Now matter how conscious and proactive we are, I'm constantly checking everything regarding safety prevention is #1 rule in my house, but there will always be a surprise factor.
4) That silly and inexpensive earthquake survival gas valve wrench that I never thought someday I'd use (but anyway I bought it and had it zip tied to the gas meter outside) was the star of the night. My house was saved by a tool that costed 80 cents.
5) Knowing your house helps a lot, but be aware that everything can change in seconds. The first obstacle was finding my cell phone in the dark so I could use the screen as a flashlight to find my slippers that were right next to me. then the furnace front panel in my bedroom floor, it fell right on the way out. I kicked it and almost fell.
All that said, I am more than aware there are dangers involving gas from poisoning to explosion, the same way there are dangers using electricity even a stupid Werther's candy can kill somebody.
When I build my own house, I'll definitely go way beyond the codes to make it even safer. As a designer, I LOVE to overdimension all systems so they can be way more reliable.
Wall furnace, NO WAY! I hate that thing. Landlord and I regret he got rid of the original cast iron radiators this apartment had. Every winter is that mexican soap opera with part of my bedroom hot like an oven and the other side freezing cold because this darn thing doesn't distribute the hot air evenly and people even think I'm sick or crazy because I set the thermostat to 90 and I keep feeling Like I'm going to freeze to death.
Gas stove? YES, PLEASE! I may have an induction cooktop that i love for some things but I'll never get rid of my gas stove.
To make things even better, When I bought this stove it wasn't what I wanted. I was completely in love with a Samsung model but it was way above my budget limit, so I ended up with the Kenmore Elite I have that was way below the budget I said it was ok because I didn't want to hurt Darryl's feelings and it seemed like he really liked that stove and when we bought it we couldn't afford anything better and I didn't want him to feel "emasculated" for not being able to afford a super fancy model. It turned out this "neh" stove is simply the very best stove I've ever had. Now I love it so much I'd probably kiss it and I hope it lasts for many decades and I've always had premium stoves (Thermador, Aga, Bosch, Electrolux Icon), this is my first time with a "budget" model, coincidentally made by Electrolux.
If you don't want to use gas, that's OK, it's a free country, you can do whatever you want in YOUR house but please, don't start this bullshit saying that gas stoves should be banned. I want to have the right to go to a store and buy a gas stove. Even the infamous wall furnace... Some people may love them, they may work in different constructions. They're not for me but that doesn't mean they should be banned.
Well, I always loved gas. I also have an induction cooktop that is great, but anyway, I still prefer gas, i love GAS, recently I discovered the wonders of having a GAS grill for the first time in my life (In Brazil everybody has the grill "built" with bricks, the only grills you find to purchase are those silly cheap portable charcoal ones that are tiny and the only american style grills you find there are imported and absurdly expensive)
Anyway, back to gas.
I've never had any issues with my gas stove.
But i had 2 serious issues with my infamous wall furnace.
almost 4 years ago, when i moved into this apartment the CO alarms went off in the middle of the night. It turned out that during a repair not related to the heater the vent duct was literally kicked off it's place and ended up blocked.
About a month ago the second incident: I learned the worst way how things can change in less than 3-seconds.
As we always say here, we're so used to earthquakes that anything below 5.0 magnitude, we just grab our mug to avoid spilling the coffee. What I never experienced before was being in the epicenter or a 3.5 earthquake. Theoretically it's nothing, just a "hiccup". Nah... wrong!
The "silly 3.5" jolt was enough to make a disaster here. bathroom window broke, my kitchenaid bowl lift stand mixer fell from the counter, my computer monitor (that is glued with museum wax) fell from the desk and the two front panels of the infamous Williams wall furnace fell.
During the fall, the furnace front panel in the living room side broke the gas line. Thank God I wasn't smoking right at that moment.
I was still under my desk mentally counting those 30 seconds after an earthquake to then stand up when i heard that loud hissing. It took no more than 5 seconds to have the whole house smelling really bad like gas.
That nighti realized 5 things:
1) I need to install emergency lights. It was midnight and we had a blackout for like 2-3 minutes right when the earthquake happened.
2) The seismic valve did absolutely nothing. The jolt wasn't strong enough to trigger it.
3) Now matter how conscious and proactive we are, I'm constantly checking everything regarding safety prevention is #1 rule in my house, but there will always be a surprise factor.
4) That silly and inexpensive earthquake survival gas valve wrench that I never thought someday I'd use (but anyway I bought it and had it zip tied to the gas meter outside) was the star of the night. My house was saved by a tool that costed 80 cents.
5) Knowing your house helps a lot, but be aware that everything can change in seconds. The first obstacle was finding my cell phone in the dark so I could use the screen as a flashlight to find my slippers that were right next to me. then the furnace front panel in my bedroom floor, it fell right on the way out. I kicked it and almost fell.
All that said, I am more than aware there are dangers involving gas from poisoning to explosion, the same way there are dangers using electricity even a stupid Werther's candy can kill somebody.
When I build my own house, I'll definitely go way beyond the codes to make it even safer. As a designer, I LOVE to overdimension all systems so they can be way more reliable.
Wall furnace, NO WAY! I hate that thing. Landlord and I regret he got rid of the original cast iron radiators this apartment had. Every winter is that mexican soap opera with part of my bedroom hot like an oven and the other side freezing cold because this darn thing doesn't distribute the hot air evenly and people even think I'm sick or crazy because I set the thermostat to 90 and I keep feeling Like I'm going to freeze to death.
Gas stove? YES, PLEASE! I may have an induction cooktop that i love for some things but I'll never get rid of my gas stove.
To make things even better, When I bought this stove it wasn't what I wanted. I was completely in love with a Samsung model but it was way above my budget limit, so I ended up with the Kenmore Elite I have that was way below the budget I said it was ok because I didn't want to hurt Darryl's feelings and it seemed like he really liked that stove and when we bought it we couldn't afford anything better and I didn't want him to feel "emasculated" for not being able to afford a super fancy model. It turned out this "neh" stove is simply the very best stove I've ever had. Now I love it so much I'd probably kiss it and I hope it lasts for many decades and I've always had premium stoves (Thermador, Aga, Bosch, Electrolux Icon), this is my first time with a "budget" model, coincidentally made by Electrolux.
If you don't want to use gas, that's OK, it's a free country, you can do whatever you want in YOUR house but please, don't start this bullshit saying that gas stoves should be banned. I want to have the right to go to a store and buy a gas stove. Even the infamous wall furnace... Some people may love them, they may work in different constructions. They're not for me but that doesn't mean they should be banned.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Thomas,
I'm surprised a mere 3.5 shake could rupture a gas line. Was it at that infamous wall heater, or elsewhere? Good thing you got that shutoff wrench, and were home to shut off gas at the meter. I've done the same, that is, zip tied a special wrench by the gas line entering the house here.
A lot may depend on how close your structure is to the epicenter. Perhaps it was very close to your apartment?
I am currently dickering with my insurance agent about earthquake insurance. I did a seismic retrofit 20 years ago, but of course they have no record of it. I found my copy last Friday, and sent them a copy via fax and email. Haven't heard back yet. And of course the premium is due the 21st. I will have to call them mañana to see what's up.
I have this premonition that The Big One is going to hit our part of the state (Northern California) this year or in a few years. I haven't had earthquake insurance for 15 years now, but figure it's time to start it up again. Went with the 25% deductible, though, which means I'm out about $100,000 before the insurance starts to cover stuff. Almost not worth it. But if the seismic retrofit is reasonable enough might go with a lower deductible.
I did the retrofit myself; the city here has a program to guide homeowners through that, with lower cost permitting and inspection fees. It got to the point where I almost enjoyed just resting down in the crawl space after some hours of retrofit work, LOL. Not any more!
I'm surprised a mere 3.5 shake could rupture a gas line. Was it at that infamous wall heater, or elsewhere? Good thing you got that shutoff wrench, and were home to shut off gas at the meter. I've done the same, that is, zip tied a special wrench by the gas line entering the house here.
A lot may depend on how close your structure is to the epicenter. Perhaps it was very close to your apartment?
I am currently dickering with my insurance agent about earthquake insurance. I did a seismic retrofit 20 years ago, but of course they have no record of it. I found my copy last Friday, and sent them a copy via fax and email. Haven't heard back yet. And of course the premium is due the 21st. I will have to call them mañana to see what's up.
I have this premonition that The Big One is going to hit our part of the state (Northern California) this year or in a few years. I haven't had earthquake insurance for 15 years now, but figure it's time to start it up again. Went with the 25% deductible, though, which means I'm out about $100,000 before the insurance starts to cover stuff. Almost not worth it. But if the seismic retrofit is reasonable enough might go with a lower deductible.
I did the retrofit myself; the city here has a program to guide homeowners through that, with lower cost permitting and inspection fees. It got to the point where I almost enjoyed just resting down in the crawl space after some hours of retrofit work, LOL. Not any more!
sudsmaster
Well-known member
From Rick's link:
"Human-caused sources and exposure
For the general public, the most prominent sources of NO
2 are internal combustion engines burning fossil fuels.[8] Outdoors, NO
2 can be a result of traffic from motor vehicles.[17]
Indoors, exposure arises from cigarette smoke,[18] and butane and kerosene heaters and stoves.[19]"
If one is a cigarette smoker, probably better to focus on quitting that, than on gas stoves.
Just sayin...
Of course, using a range hood while cooking on a gas stove is a very good idea.
I'm also wondering what with better insulated and sealed modern homes, if heat exchanger equipped ventilation might not be a bad idea. I will try to see if there are any such products on the market. What I envision would be a unit like a window air conditioner that simply recovers heat from the inside while it brings in fresh air from the outside.
"Human-caused sources and exposure
For the general public, the most prominent sources of NO
2 are internal combustion engines burning fossil fuels.[8] Outdoors, NO
2 can be a result of traffic from motor vehicles.[17]
Indoors, exposure arises from cigarette smoke,[18] and butane and kerosene heaters and stoves.[19]"
If one is a cigarette smoker, probably better to focus on quitting that, than on gas stoves.
Just sayin...
Of course, using a range hood while cooking on a gas stove is a very good idea.
I'm also wondering what with better insulated and sealed modern homes, if heat exchanger equipped ventilation might not be a bad idea. I will try to see if there are any such products on the market. What I envision would be a unit like a window air conditioner that simply recovers heat from the inside while it brings in fresh air from the outside.
@sudsmaster
Yup... 3.5 is definitely "nothing" in terms of an Earthquake.
The epicenter was really close. It wasn't a big earthquake (actually it was literally one jolt only and 2-3 seconds of rolling) it sounded almost like a bomb instead of that "train" noise.
The earthquake itself didn't break the line. When the heater panel fell, one of the corners (sharp) got stuck in the line and the weight of the panel worked as a lever, making a hole on it. It's a super short line, like a stove line, that goes from the seismic valve to the furnace control valve.
When I came back inside, the panel was hanging at 45° and the only thing holding it was the gas line.
If the dogs didn't start barking like crazy seconds before, I wouldn't have dropped and covered under my desk (I'm glad I did it). The Shakealert went off with that annoying siren but as I am an Uber driver, it's mandatory to have the "public transportation" version of the shakealert that goes off for anything above magnitude 1.0. That darn thing goes off 50 times PER DAY and in two days I learned to simply ignore it.
Anyway, if I waited for the shakealert to do something I'd be in trouble because it went off 1 second AFTER the shaking. (at least the screen flashing like a strobe helped me find my phone in the dark). the initial alert was magnitude 4.1, 2 minutes later they corrected it to 3.5.
Other stupid thing about the shakealert, it looks like it first posts on Facebook and then the alert arrives to the phone. Other times it posts on Facebook the alert "only" 12 to 24 hours late. Other annoying thing is the alert comes in Spanish "Alerta Sismica" instead of "Seismic Alert" in English or at least both languages. It looks like they copied EVERYTHING from Mexico because it sounds exactly like the Mexican earthquake alert. I first thought it was something I could change in the app but no, they have only that tone.
........
The apartment i live is 100 years old but it was retrofitted after the Northridge earthquake. Before I signed the contract I made sure and let the real state agent know I wouldn't rent anything that hasn't been earthquake retrofitted.
Also, with the gentrification, this is one of the tricks the city hall use to make homeowners desperate to sell their properties for pennies to Asian investors. Earthquake retrofitting is MANDATORY in Los Angeles and it looks like every year they find a new thing to make mandatory (Unfortunately for most people it's impossible to keep up.) At this point, gentrification sucks. I can see my neighborhood is losing its personality, historical homes being demolished to give room for multi-family "boxes" You know... "Luxury" 2-bedroom apartments with open-concept kitchens, "real hardwood-looking" cheap laminate floors and stainless-steel Magic Chef or Panda appliances and so small that if you sneeze the windows explode (For "only" $5000 per month)
By the way, here in LA they now have a new hype word to match the open-concept kitchen: "Bistrô dining room", which is nothing more than a dining room so small that two people fit comfortably..... stacked on each other.
Yup... 3.5 is definitely "nothing" in terms of an Earthquake.
The epicenter was really close. It wasn't a big earthquake (actually it was literally one jolt only and 2-3 seconds of rolling) it sounded almost like a bomb instead of that "train" noise.
The earthquake itself didn't break the line. When the heater panel fell, one of the corners (sharp) got stuck in the line and the weight of the panel worked as a lever, making a hole on it. It's a super short line, like a stove line, that goes from the seismic valve to the furnace control valve.
When I came back inside, the panel was hanging at 45° and the only thing holding it was the gas line.
If the dogs didn't start barking like crazy seconds before, I wouldn't have dropped and covered under my desk (I'm glad I did it). The Shakealert went off with that annoying siren but as I am an Uber driver, it's mandatory to have the "public transportation" version of the shakealert that goes off for anything above magnitude 1.0. That darn thing goes off 50 times PER DAY and in two days I learned to simply ignore it.
Anyway, if I waited for the shakealert to do something I'd be in trouble because it went off 1 second AFTER the shaking. (at least the screen flashing like a strobe helped me find my phone in the dark). the initial alert was magnitude 4.1, 2 minutes later they corrected it to 3.5.
Other stupid thing about the shakealert, it looks like it first posts on Facebook and then the alert arrives to the phone. Other times it posts on Facebook the alert "only" 12 to 24 hours late. Other annoying thing is the alert comes in Spanish "Alerta Sismica" instead of "Seismic Alert" in English or at least both languages. It looks like they copied EVERYTHING from Mexico because it sounds exactly like the Mexican earthquake alert. I first thought it was something I could change in the app but no, they have only that tone.
........
The apartment i live is 100 years old but it was retrofitted after the Northridge earthquake. Before I signed the contract I made sure and let the real state agent know I wouldn't rent anything that hasn't been earthquake retrofitted.
Also, with the gentrification, this is one of the tricks the city hall use to make homeowners desperate to sell their properties for pennies to Asian investors. Earthquake retrofitting is MANDATORY in Los Angeles and it looks like every year they find a new thing to make mandatory (Unfortunately for most people it's impossible to keep up.) At this point, gentrification sucks. I can see my neighborhood is losing its personality, historical homes being demolished to give room for multi-family "boxes" You know... "Luxury" 2-bedroom apartments with open-concept kitchens, "real hardwood-looking" cheap laminate floors and stainless-steel Magic Chef or Panda appliances and so small that if you sneeze the windows explode (For "only" $5000 per month)
By the way, here in LA they now have a new hype word to match the open-concept kitchen: "Bistrô dining room", which is nothing more than a dining room so small that two people fit comfortably..... stacked on each other.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Thomas,
My mom moved into a quaint apartment complex in San Francisco in the 80's. It had steam heat that she loved. But after about five years the property owner realized they couldn't raise the rents (rent control) as much as they would have liked. At that point the building steam boiler required repairs. Instead of fixing it, the owner decided to rip it out and install gas fired space heaters. The problem for my mom is that instead of a steam radiator in a central part of her little apartment, the gas heater was affixed to a wall in the unit's entry hall, which is where the heat pretty much stayed. The plus for the property owner must have been no longer having to pay for the fuel to run the steam heat, because the gas heaters ran off the units' gas meters, which the tenants paid for. The inappropriate location of the gas heaters was probably in order to avoid having to put proper exhaust systems in the middle of the units - the entrance hall had a window into the complex open back stairwell, so it was easy just to exhaust the heater through that wall. Whenever I visited her in the winter she'd be bundled up and standing in that dim hallway in front of the damn gas heater. It kind of sucked.
My mom moved into a quaint apartment complex in San Francisco in the 80's. It had steam heat that she loved. But after about five years the property owner realized they couldn't raise the rents (rent control) as much as they would have liked. At that point the building steam boiler required repairs. Instead of fixing it, the owner decided to rip it out and install gas fired space heaters. The problem for my mom is that instead of a steam radiator in a central part of her little apartment, the gas heater was affixed to a wall in the unit's entry hall, which is where the heat pretty much stayed. The plus for the property owner must have been no longer having to pay for the fuel to run the steam heat, because the gas heaters ran off the units' gas meters, which the tenants paid for. The inappropriate location of the gas heaters was probably in order to avoid having to put proper exhaust systems in the middle of the units - the entrance hall had a window into the complex open back stairwell, so it was easy just to exhaust the heater through that wall. Whenever I visited her in the winter she'd be bundled up and standing in that dim hallway in front of the damn gas heater. It kind of sucked.
arbilab
Well-known member
using a range hood while cooking
Got it covered. I use the range hood while smoking. I only breathe the N<sub>2</sub>O once.
[this post was last edited: 5/19/2020-07:14]
Got it covered. I use the range hood while smoking. I only breathe the N<sub>2</sub>O once.
[this post was last edited: 5/19/2020-07:14]
bradfordwhite
Well-known member
3.5 ? Sure, it doesn't take much.
A flex connector would be best at the service entrance.
And know how to turn off your meter.
A flex connector would be best at the service entrance.
And know how to turn off your meter.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
My home is forced air gas, with the furnace down in the crawl space. There are two gas fired space heaters on the property: one a wall heater in the enclosed patio, the other in the 1,000 sq ft separate workshop. I've never turned either on, both are shut off at the gas line. I'm told the wall heater doesn't work, anyway. The enclosed patio is well ventilated so I've never been inclined to fix it so it could be started. The one in the workshop is an old big fan forced gas heater, mounted at what would be 8 ft ceiling height if there was a ceiling (exposed rafters). No idea if it works or not. That shop is also well ventilated, so heating it would be rather costly.
One warning: if you do your own gas or air line work, beware of Harbor Freight fittings. I've had a number of HF brass compressed air fittings fail because they cracked at the threads. The plated steel ones are OK.
One warning: if you do your own gas or air line work, beware of Harbor Freight fittings. I've had a number of HF brass compressed air fittings fail because they cracked at the threads. The plated steel ones are OK.
Well, as explained above... the earthquake itself was irrelevant for the line (which is basically a flexible hose, just like any other.
What damaged the line was the front panel falling (that thing is quite heavy), mixed with a hose too short, basically stretched to the limit.
If it was ME installing the furnace, I'd never use a hose so short. If the hose was a bit longer, it would simply flex and nothing would have happened. My landlord (whose brother works at Williams) looked at that line and said "Well, this is definitely not right. The replacement line is way longer, so now it can do what lines are supposed to do: flex. Even if the whole furnace falls from the wall, (if an earthquake is strong enough to do it, it probably won't make any difference because part of California will simply disappear in the ocean) it can now flex.
last night, after i posted the previous reply, I started wondering... "Why the hell a company based in California (Williams) would make a wall furnace that has front panels that fall every time a silly earthquake happens because the hooks that keep it in place are smaller that those "saw hooks" that hang pictures. Even a "trainee" designer would have considered that."
I decided to inspect the furnace closer and voilá. each panel is supposed to have a screw on top that secures the front panel and the screws are MISSING!
I've been through 4 earthquakes that dropped the furnace panels, twice they fell out of nowhere (once in the middle of the night while I was sleeping) and as far as I remember once i dropped one of the panels when the HORRIBLE Hoover "purple ankles" constellation hit it.
It took almost 4 years for me to realize that a simple screw could have avoided that mess.
What damaged the line was the front panel falling (that thing is quite heavy), mixed with a hose too short, basically stretched to the limit.
If it was ME installing the furnace, I'd never use a hose so short. If the hose was a bit longer, it would simply flex and nothing would have happened. My landlord (whose brother works at Williams) looked at that line and said "Well, this is definitely not right. The replacement line is way longer, so now it can do what lines are supposed to do: flex. Even if the whole furnace falls from the wall, (if an earthquake is strong enough to do it, it probably won't make any difference because part of California will simply disappear in the ocean) it can now flex.
last night, after i posted the previous reply, I started wondering... "Why the hell a company based in California (Williams) would make a wall furnace that has front panels that fall every time a silly earthquake happens because the hooks that keep it in place are smaller that those "saw hooks" that hang pictures. Even a "trainee" designer would have considered that."
I decided to inspect the furnace closer and voilá. each panel is supposed to have a screw on top that secures the front panel and the screws are MISSING!
I've been through 4 earthquakes that dropped the furnace panels, twice they fell out of nowhere (once in the middle of the night while I was sleeping) and as far as I remember once i dropped one of the panels when the HORRIBLE Hoover "purple ankles" constellation hit it.
It took almost 4 years for me to realize that a simple screw could have avoided that mess.
bradfordwhite
Well-known member
JFYI, the coast of California is not going to "fall into the ocean" as the media garbage like to pretend a while back to pump their ratings.
The coast is moving a few inches a year North and cities like L.A. and Sanfrancisco will eventually be part of Oregon, then Washington, and possibly Canada....
This is possible because of the Hayward fault.
The coast is moving a few inches a year North and cities like L.A. and Sanfrancisco will eventually be part of Oregon, then Washington, and possibly Canada....
This is possible because of the Hayward fault.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Sounds like somebody "screwed" up!
Glad you got that fixed.
Meanwhile I'm dealing with my insurance company, the California Earthquake Authority, and a contractor to try to get the seismic retrofit that was done on this home recognized in order to get a big (25%) discount of my earthquake insurance. Such fun.[this post was last edited: 5/19/2020-20:37]
Glad you got that fixed.
Meanwhile I'm dealing with my insurance company, the California Earthquake Authority, and a contractor to try to get the seismic retrofit that was done on this home recognized in order to get a big (25%) discount of my earthquake insurance. Such fun.[this post was last edited: 5/19/2020-20:37]
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Hayward Fault
No, the Hayward Fault is not responsible for the movement of the California coast northwards. It's just a rather small part of the overall faulting along that coast. The biggest source of South-North movement is the good old San Andreas Fault. Other faults - bigger than the Hayward, are, in addition to the San Andreas: Calaveras, Greenville, March Creek, Concord, Pleasanton, Rodgers Creek, Maacama, San Jose, to name just a few of the 50 or more new faults found along the coast. But the San Andreas is the longest, stretching about 750 miles or more.
https://maps.conservation.ca.gov/cgs/fam/
No, the Hayward Fault is not responsible for the movement of the California coast northwards. It's just a rather small part of the overall faulting along that coast. The biggest source of South-North movement is the good old San Andreas Fault. Other faults - bigger than the Hayward, are, in addition to the San Andreas: Calaveras, Greenville, March Creek, Concord, Pleasanton, Rodgers Creek, Maacama, San Jose, to name just a few of the 50 or more new faults found along the coast. But the San Andreas is the longest, stretching about 750 miles or more.
https://maps.conservation.ca.gov/cgs/fam/
Well, the very first thing we learn when we live in Los Angeles is "DO NOT TRUST HOLLYWOOD"
Los Angeles was destroyed thousands of times. From the US Bank building falling (San Andreas)to the ground simply swallowing Wilshire boulevard and a giant Randy's donut rolling down the street and exploding a Chevron station (2012)
I won't even mention the impressive number of time the Hollywood sign collapsed (Earthquake, San Andreas, 2012, Independence day, and all possible other movies you can imagine).
Actually the sign was destroyed so many times that I seriously think the screenwriters have something against it. LOL)
Now back to real world. Everybody that felt a strong earthquake knows that they NEVER happen like in the movies. The only time I watched an earthquake that was "somewhat" similar to a real earthquake was on 9-1-1 second season, first episode. (and of course it was a little exaggerated, even for a 7.1 earthquake)
I don't want to imagine how strong an earthquake has to be to make a mug jump off the desk and hit the ceiling or make a police interceptor Ford Explorer literally jump and land 3 lanes to the side on the 110 north. If someday an earthquake can cause that, probably the whole world would be destroyed. LOL
Sliding into the ocean is virtually impossible (anybody that has a minimum engineering knowledge knows it would need a freaking absurd earthquake magnitude "50" or more to cause that.
What is NOT impossible in Los Angeles is the opposite, the ocean invading the land (tsunami) and also liquefaction, which could cause an apocalyptic scenario with thousands (if not millions) of deaths.
But of course, for that we would also need a freaking absurd earthquake. It's still statistically easier to win the lottery twice in a row.
Believe it or not, what keep us "reasonably" safe is the super high seismic activity. It's like splitting a huge fart into tiny ones to avoid the noise. Those "microquakes" release energy slowly... it's zillions of times better than no earthquake happening for long periods and then suddenly all the energy is released at once.
Also, those silly but annoying microquakes that constantly happen don't cause significant damages (most times cause no damages at all) but they keep people "alert" and always thinking proactively about prevention.
Brazil doesn't have a history of earthquakes. Once there was a massive earthquake in Chile that could be felt in Brazil the magnitude in Brazil was less than 2.5, some people could feel it and the whole country stopped, all channels showing breaking news, etc.
Here, a 2.5 is literally nothing. We can notice it, it feels like a heavy truck just passed on the street, eventually we may give no more than 5 seconds of attention to it so irrelevant it is, however, every time we put something on a shelf or hang something, instinctively we think "What if an earthquake happens?" This is so automatic for us, as we constantly have those microquakes that we don't even realize we thought about that but that helps keeping us "alert and safe"
Los Angeles was destroyed thousands of times. From the US Bank building falling (San Andreas)to the ground simply swallowing Wilshire boulevard and a giant Randy's donut rolling down the street and exploding a Chevron station (2012)
I won't even mention the impressive number of time the Hollywood sign collapsed (Earthquake, San Andreas, 2012, Independence day, and all possible other movies you can imagine).
Actually the sign was destroyed so many times that I seriously think the screenwriters have something against it. LOL)
Now back to real world. Everybody that felt a strong earthquake knows that they NEVER happen like in the movies. The only time I watched an earthquake that was "somewhat" similar to a real earthquake was on 9-1-1 second season, first episode. (and of course it was a little exaggerated, even for a 7.1 earthquake)
I don't want to imagine how strong an earthquake has to be to make a mug jump off the desk and hit the ceiling or make a police interceptor Ford Explorer literally jump and land 3 lanes to the side on the 110 north. If someday an earthquake can cause that, probably the whole world would be destroyed. LOL
Sliding into the ocean is virtually impossible (anybody that has a minimum engineering knowledge knows it would need a freaking absurd earthquake magnitude "50" or more to cause that.
What is NOT impossible in Los Angeles is the opposite, the ocean invading the land (tsunami) and also liquefaction, which could cause an apocalyptic scenario with thousands (if not millions) of deaths.
But of course, for that we would also need a freaking absurd earthquake. It's still statistically easier to win the lottery twice in a row.
Believe it or not, what keep us "reasonably" safe is the super high seismic activity. It's like splitting a huge fart into tiny ones to avoid the noise. Those "microquakes" release energy slowly... it's zillions of times better than no earthquake happening for long periods and then suddenly all the energy is released at once.
Also, those silly but annoying microquakes that constantly happen don't cause significant damages (most times cause no damages at all) but they keep people "alert" and always thinking proactively about prevention.
Brazil doesn't have a history of earthquakes. Once there was a massive earthquake in Chile that could be felt in Brazil the magnitude in Brazil was less than 2.5, some people could feel it and the whole country stopped, all channels showing breaking news, etc.
Here, a 2.5 is literally nothing. We can notice it, it feels like a heavy truck just passed on the street, eventually we may give no more than 5 seconds of attention to it so irrelevant it is, however, every time we put something on a shelf or hang something, instinctively we think "What if an earthquake happens?" This is so automatic for us, as we constantly have those microquakes that we don't even realize we thought about that but that helps keeping us "alert and safe"
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Thomas,
I wouldn't get too concerned about tsunamis from California earthquakes. That's because the most common type of fault here is strike-slip, which is consistent with the California coast moving inches to the north each year with regard to the rest of North America. This type of movement does not displace much ocean water.
The type of fault that produces tsunamis is the uplift type, such as off Japan where a huge amount of water is displaced, up or down, and the resultant wave can sweep over the coastline and cause major death and destruction. So that's one thing Californians can generally not worry about, unless there's a cataclysmic uplifting quake hundreds of miles off the coast in the Pacific ocean. Which is far less likely than the San Andreas doing its north south dance.
I lived through the Loma Prieta quake in '89. I was fortunate in being miles away to the north-east of there, on relatively solid ground. I could tell it was a big quake, but where I was, the motion was more rolling than jerking. I've been in smaller quakes but closer to the epicenter than those can be quite alarming, with sharp jolts and lots of vigorous shaking. As with social gatherings, it's the jerks that cause the most destruction. LOL.
I wouldn't get too concerned about tsunamis from California earthquakes. That's because the most common type of fault here is strike-slip, which is consistent with the California coast moving inches to the north each year with regard to the rest of North America. This type of movement does not displace much ocean water.
The type of fault that produces tsunamis is the uplift type, such as off Japan where a huge amount of water is displaced, up or down, and the resultant wave can sweep over the coastline and cause major death and destruction. So that's one thing Californians can generally not worry about, unless there's a cataclysmic uplifting quake hundreds of miles off the coast in the Pacific ocean. Which is far less likely than the San Andreas doing its north south dance.
I lived through the Loma Prieta quake in '89. I was fortunate in being miles away to the north-east of there, on relatively solid ground. I could tell it was a big quake, but where I was, the motion was more rolling than jerking. I've been in smaller quakes but closer to the epicenter than those can be quite alarming, with sharp jolts and lots of vigorous shaking. As with social gatherings, it's the jerks that cause the most destruction. LOL.
bradfordwhite
Well-known member
California has Tsunami zones. Eureka in particular, which also has quite a few earthquakes just off shore. Used to live about 10 minutes from the beach. Heard them.
Also didn't have gas service where I lived.
No, I don't care to revisit the area....
Also didn't have gas service where I lived.
No, I don't care to revisit the area....
Los Angeles has that too. Some parts of the city (Santa Monica, Venice and Redondo Beach, for example) even has tsunami sirens.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Tsunami Sirens
Yes, but tsunamis are quite rare in California, and my point stands: the San Andreas fault is not of the type what will produce a tsunami when it ruptures.
There may be other faults far to the west, north and south that generate uplift or slumping that could create a tsunami, but I do not believe that in my lifetime a California based fault has ever caused a tsunami.
"Oh, but what about Crescent City in 1964?" you might ask.
Well, guess what? That was the result of a huge earthquake not in California, but in Alaska. My point stands: California faults do not create the kind of conditions that create tsunamis. I concur that tsunamis can be generates by fault ruptures hundreds to thousands of miles away, and those may impact the California coast. Just not from a California quake.
Similarly, the 2011 Japan quake generated a tsunami that reached California, resulting in zero deaths and a relatively paltry $40,000 in damage.
In 2018 a 7.9 quake, again in Alaska, generated tsunami warnings along the California coast, but it fizzled.
So yeah, they can happen here, but not from California-based earthquakes.
Also, the California tsunami zones tend to be located in areas where the coastline creates a lens that might concentrate and focus the wave. Like Crescent City or Santa Cruz Harbor.
[this post was last edited: 5/21/2020-14:29]
https://www.abc10.com/article/news/local/how-often-do-tsunamis-strike-in-california/103-510976740
Yes, but tsunamis are quite rare in California, and my point stands: the San Andreas fault is not of the type what will produce a tsunami when it ruptures.
There may be other faults far to the west, north and south that generate uplift or slumping that could create a tsunami, but I do not believe that in my lifetime a California based fault has ever caused a tsunami.
"Oh, but what about Crescent City in 1964?" you might ask.
Well, guess what? That was the result of a huge earthquake not in California, but in Alaska. My point stands: California faults do not create the kind of conditions that create tsunamis. I concur that tsunamis can be generates by fault ruptures hundreds to thousands of miles away, and those may impact the California coast. Just not from a California quake.
Similarly, the 2011 Japan quake generated a tsunami that reached California, resulting in zero deaths and a relatively paltry $40,000 in damage.
In 2018 a 7.9 quake, again in Alaska, generated tsunami warnings along the California coast, but it fizzled.
So yeah, they can happen here, but not from California-based earthquakes.
Also, the California tsunami zones tend to be located in areas where the coastline creates a lens that might concentrate and focus the wave. Like Crescent City or Santa Cruz Harbor.
[this post was last edited: 5/21/2020-14:29]
https://www.abc10.com/article/news/local/how-often-do-tsunamis-strike-in-california/103-510976740
bradfordwhite
Well-known member
It's interesting to think that the West coast could feel and see results of a earthquake on the other side of the vast sea.
It underscores the fact that we live on a finite planet. The ocean can act like a dishpan full of water and someone bumps the side.
https://www.scpr.org/news/2011/03/11/24864/tsunami-warning-issued-southern-california-coast/
It underscores the fact that we live on a finite planet. The ocean can act like a dishpan full of water and someone bumps the side.
https://www.scpr.org/news/2011/03/11/24864/tsunami-warning-issued-southern-california-coast/
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Yes, there was little to no wave action here from the 2011 Japan quake. I'm on the east side of the bay, about 40 ft above sea level. But any tsunami from off the coast would first have to come through the relatively narrow Golden Gate, which would limit the magnitude considerably. And then I'm about 20 miles south of the gate, which also would limit the intensity here. As it was, nada.
Mostly it seems California could get hit by tsunamis generated far out in the Pacific, like Japan, and by the time they get here, they are relatively dissapated. Or from Alaska, again, dissipated and the effects mainly far to the north of the SF Bay Area.
Of more concern should be folks on the East Coast of the USA. That's because the big volcano on the Canary Islands could someday collapse into the ocean. And since it's facing west, the resultant tsunami could wipe out some of our east coast cities, towns, harbors, docks, etc.
Just sayin'....
Mostly it seems California could get hit by tsunamis generated far out in the Pacific, like Japan, and by the time they get here, they are relatively dissapated. Or from Alaska, again, dissipated and the effects mainly far to the north of the SF Bay Area.
Of more concern should be folks on the East Coast of the USA. That's because the big volcano on the Canary Islands could someday collapse into the ocean. And since it's facing west, the resultant tsunami could wipe out some of our east coast cities, towns, harbors, docks, etc.
Just sayin'....
sudsmaster
Well-known member
"ONE of the world’s foremost volcanologists has warned that if a very active volcano on the Canary Islands is the next to blow, the coasts of Europe, the UK and the USA could be devastated by huge mega-tsunamis.
"Professor Stephen Sparks, based at the University of Bristol, made the revelation about Cumbre Vieja, a very active volcano on the island of La Palma, adjacent to the popular holiday destination of Tenerife. He explained to Express Online: “When you have volcanic islands sticking out of the sea, they’re very unstable. And, in some cases, you can get gigantic landslides when part of the island essentially collapses into the sea.
"Professor Stephen Sparks, based at the University of Bristol, made the revelation about Cumbre Vieja, a very active volcano on the island of La Palma, adjacent to the popular holiday destination of Tenerife. He explained to Express Online: “When you have volcanic islands sticking out of the sea, they’re very unstable. And, in some cases, you can get gigantic landslides when part of the island essentially collapses into the sea."
Now, in all fairness, scientific opinion is divided on this. But it seems to me that our east coast will be severely impacted by a tsunami is as likely as our west coast south of Eureka suffering the same fate. Just remember: the Atlantic Ocean is a lot more narrow than the Pacific... LOL...
https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...ing-of-Fire-Canary-Islands-La-Palma-Indonesia
"Professor Stephen Sparks, based at the University of Bristol, made the revelation about Cumbre Vieja, a very active volcano on the island of La Palma, adjacent to the popular holiday destination of Tenerife. He explained to Express Online: “When you have volcanic islands sticking out of the sea, they’re very unstable. And, in some cases, you can get gigantic landslides when part of the island essentially collapses into the sea.
"Professor Stephen Sparks, based at the University of Bristol, made the revelation about Cumbre Vieja, a very active volcano on the island of La Palma, adjacent to the popular holiday destination of Tenerife. He explained to Express Online: “When you have volcanic islands sticking out of the sea, they’re very unstable. And, in some cases, you can get gigantic landslides when part of the island essentially collapses into the sea."
Now, in all fairness, scientific opinion is divided on this. But it seems to me that our east coast will be severely impacted by a tsunami is as likely as our west coast south of Eureka suffering the same fate. Just remember: the Atlantic Ocean is a lot more narrow than the Pacific... LOL...
https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...ing-of-Fire-Canary-Islands-La-Palma-Indonesia
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Distance between Japan and SF: about 5,400 miles
Distance between La Palma and Florida: about 3,900 miles
Distance between La Palma and Florida: about 3,900 miles
vacerator
Well-known member
Yes,
Discovery channel or Learning channel aired that 20 years ago about LaPalma. Miami would be in trouble.
Discovery channel or Learning channel aired that 20 years ago about LaPalma. Miami would be in trouble.
cornutt
Well-known member
Gas space heaters
When I was a child, we spent a lot of time in the houses of relatives that were heated in part with unvented gas room heaters. They weren't considered particularly unsafe. However, everyone that had them knew what the flame was supposed to look like. I remember my grandfather showing me how to adjust the air shutter. He taught me to open it until the flame started to lift off of the burner orifices, and then close it back slowly until the flame just touched back down. He told me that if I ever saw one burning yellow, to shut it off and tell an adult.
They probably considered them a big safety improvement (not to mention convenience) over the coal stoves that preceded them. I was told many stories about people who either died of, or barely escaped from, the "coal damp".
When I was a child, we spent a lot of time in the houses of relatives that were heated in part with unvented gas room heaters. They weren't considered particularly unsafe. However, everyone that had them knew what the flame was supposed to look like. I remember my grandfather showing me how to adjust the air shutter. He taught me to open it until the flame started to lift off of the burner orifices, and then close it back slowly until the flame just touched back down. He told me that if I ever saw one burning yellow, to shut it off and tell an adult.
They probably considered them a big safety improvement (not to mention convenience) over the coal stoves that preceded them. I was told many stories about people who either died of, or barely escaped from, the "coal damp".
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