How are your appliances connected #2

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CEE standards are a group of European standards for electrical equipment.

e.g. CEE 7/7 is the standard grounded European plug.

Most of the CEE standards were adopted by the IEC (International Electrotechnical Commission) these are now used globally.

There are also EN (Euro Norm) standards issued by CEN/CENELEC [Comité Européen de Normalisation Electrotechnique (European Committee for Electrotechnical Standardization)
 
Basic CEEform Configurations

Here are the basic CEEform plug configurations :

3-31-2008-07-27-0--mrx.jpg.gif
 
The difference in frequency can indeed cause problems. In certain areas of the Netherlands Antilles the voltage is 110-130V and the frequency 50Hz. Appliances like refrigerators and air conditioners that were originally designed for the US market can run on this but the life expectancy is reduced.
 
I don't understand why 127V 50Hz countries don't just change over to 230V 50Hz it seems sort of pointless to persist with what is a totally obsolete European standard that has been phased out in the EU.
 
Change costs money so they leave it the way it is. The Netherlands Antilles are not part of the European Union. They still use the guilder (NAF) as currency.
 
So what would use 100hz to 500hz (green)?

So what would 24v 50-60hz be for? (purple) I am guessing a thermostat or low-voltage conrol circuit?

Now the 42v one TRULY is a mystery....powertools? New standards for vehicles? (There was talk of "upping" 12v to 42v.
 
24V and 42V supplies are considered "ELV" Extra-Low Voltage. These are typically used for things like hand-held / mining lights. On pleasure craft e.g. inland waterway cruiser boats and countless other applications.

In domestic installations we use those voltages for fans and lights located right above showers. (the 24V system only)

The 100hz to 500hz systems are typically used for aviation power supplies, not necessarily on-board but the sockets could be found airside at airports and maintanence facilities.

Modern aircraft all use 400Hz power on board. The reason for this is that higher frequency power systems are lighter than 50/60hz gear. It makes transformers much smaller. Aircraft have to make equipment as light as possible so it's a trade off.

The reason that 50hz and 60hz are used for normal mains/line power supplies is quite simple. Back in the 1880s/1890s generators were usually built for a single local purpose if they were supplying arc lights, they tended to use high frequencies >100hz to prevent flicker where as if they were supplying mostly induction motors they'd generally use a low frequency <30hz as it's easier to build a low frequency AC motor than a high freq. one. Particularly, if you're using 19th century materials. There were also no major transmission networks, all electrical power was generated locally.

Both 50hz and 60hz provide reasonable flicker-free operation of incandescent light bulbs, are easy to build transformers and motors for so represented a good compromise.

AEG seems to have picked 50Hz in 1891 and thus set the standard for most of Europe.
Westinghouse picked 60Hz

Pre-existing systems continued to operate on other odd frequencies throughout the 20th century, many of which were only phased out when they became uneconomic to maintain / buy equipment for.

E.g. 42Hz was common in the UK and Italy and 60Hz was used in parts of Australia.

In 1911 in London there were 11 different supply frequencies in use in different areas. It was really only when domestic appliances with motors and radios became a big deal that manufactuers forced the standardisation both in the US and Europe as it was uneconomic to make umpteen different versions of the same machine. When national grids became established, it was necessary to standardise and in Europe 50Hz was the frequency normally picked.

Also having a single standard frequency made it possible to interconnect with the grid. So, if you were a small generator in Europe or North America it was absolutely vital to have the possibility of buying / selling power and being interconnected.

In Ireland, because Siemens was selected for the first really major power projects and long-distance transmission systems in the early 1920s we standardised on 220V/380V 50Hz for domestic supply by 1923. I suspect that many smaller European countries would have similar history.

So, that's the story of how we're stuck with 50 and 60Hz !
 
On the AC/DC thing

It was also common that in areas with very low frequency supplies e.g. where houses / offices were being supplied on a power system that was used for driving mining equipment or railway traction and had weird frequencies like 25Hz that they would use local Motor-Generator sets to supply DC power to the homes/businesses to prevent flicker. This was also commonly done to provide arc lighting from low frequency railway supplies.

DC power was still common in the early 1900s.

Basically, you'd use an AC motor to drive a DC generator and it'd produce smooth DC for the lighting.

There's also one other advantage to using lower frequency AC - it doesn't burn people! If you use high frequency AC you introduce a new risk i.e. that if someone's shocked, even at low voltage, that the frequency of the supply can cause a heating effect on tissue. This is actually exploited medically for electrocoagulation i.e. sealing up bleeding vessels.

So, in general you don't want to have very high frequency AC anywhere outside of a controlled environment. This is also why you should never touch the power supply to any radio transmitter, even a small one. It can burn very badly
 
On the AC/DC thing:

IIRC:
AC throws you...
DC pulls you in (can't let go of power supply easily.)

~In domestic installations we use those voltages for fans and lights located right above showers. (The 24V system only).

Is the transfomer located, say, at the main panel (consumer unit) with low-volage wiring to the load? Or is the voltage reduced at the switch as one would find with low-voltage track lighting?

Looks like 220v is treated with tremendous reverence, caution and concern for safety. Fascinating in that I had never heard of so many of the methods and customs/traditions/ requirements until this thread!
 
For SELV (Safety Extra Low Voltage) fans the transformer's usually located in the attic, or near by but out of reach of water. It's much the same way as some low voltage recessed lighting would be supplied. You can also get the transformer built into an over-sized switch box that can be located out of reach.

The advantage of using an SELV fan is that you can put it RIGHT IN the shower ceiling along with a recessed light often built into the same unit.

The other alternative is to use an in-line fan at the other end of a duct. Otherwise, you have to keep the fan well out of arms reach from the shower i.e. typically on the wall at the otherside of the bathroom.

UK/Irish bathroom regs for electrical appliances are EXTREMELY strict by any standard. You're not allowed to have any form out electrical outlet in the bathroom other than a special shaver socket which is only able to accept a special plug used on shavers and electric toothbrushes. It can only supply a tiny amount of power and is connected via an isolating transformer!

No wall switches are allowed either. This means that light switches are typically either located outside the bathroom in the hallway or, they're operated by pull strings and mounted on the ceiling. The strings must be non-conductive.

Drying your hair in a UK or Irish bathroom's just not allowed at all. Nor can you install any electrical appliances e.g. it's not unheard of in larger bathrooms in France to install a washing machine!

Most other European countries allow electrical outlets in bathrooms provided that they're protected by a RCD (GFCI). The UK/Irish approach has just always been very fixated on safety in the bathroom.

ii) PELV and SELV
Equipment may also be described as a Protective Extra-Low Voltage (PELV) or Safety Extra-Low Voltage (SELV) product. PELV products use low voltage but are connected to earth. SELV products are again of low voltage, but the voltage supply output is double insulated from the input. This enables a SELV product to be used in any zone in the bathroom providing the source (e.g. transformer) is housed in Zone 3.

This is the way they categorise the bathroom 'zones of protection'

Zone 0: the interior of the bathtub or shower basin.
Zone 1: the area around the bathtub or shower basin up to a height of 2.25m above the floor and at a radius of 1.2m from the water outlet.
Zone 2: is limited by the vertical planes external to zone 1 and parallel vertical plane (s) 0.60m external to zone 1.
Zone 3: is limited to the vertical plane(s) external to zone 2 and the parallel vertical plane(s) 2.40m external to zone 2.

Requirements: (Ireland, the UK is a bit different)
Zone 0 - IP 67 and Low Voltage
Zone 1 - IP 44 and Low Voltage
Zone 2 - IP 44 and Low Voltage or 220V with RCD protection
Zone 3 - Semi-Normal rules apply (RCD protection required)

Under absolutely no circumstances can a socket outlet or light switch be installed though! Only fixed appliances designed for bathrooms.

4-1-2008-09-21-16--mrx.jpg
 
Reverence, Caution and Concern for Safety

Hi Steve,

Not all countries have that level of caution around our 240v Supplies. Australia is quite unconcerned in that regard.

For the last 5 years or so, all 240v equipment on Building sites has to be RCD protected, and it is encouraged domestically that you use an RCD Extension cord or powerboard with power tools, or electric gardening equipment.

Rental properties have had to have RCD's installed for all GPO's in the last two years.

New domestic installations must have RCD's fitted for all GPO's however there is no mandate to retrofit them to existing installations.

We have a Double GPO within 2 feet of our handbasin in the bathroom, and a high wattage heating light fixture and exhaust fan. It just never seems to be a problem.
 
~DC power was still common in the early 1900s.

AFAIK, DC power was, unitl recenlty, avaialble in secions of downtown Manhattan. The attached link states it is gone (or soon-to-be gone!)

It is useful for elevators and certain types of sewing machines, among other things. I had seen such sewing machines when I worked for an uncle in a mink furrier's shop.

I was warned (decades ago) to watch what got plugged in where..........

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/11/16/last-dc-power-in-nyc.html
 
You know it's funny though, actually not, but here in the US even with all the safety devices on installation of the electrical system, we still have multiple fires every year related to electricity. Most of the time it is not the system but human error on the part of the consumer. How many times I have seen 1500 watt electric heater plugged into an undersized extension cord. I went to a friends apt one day and she had her portable maytag clothes dryer plugged into a lamp type extension cord. The plug was melting in the wall outlet. I have seen 10,000 btu a/c units plugged into the same. I think a good idea would be for the manufacturers to put a fuse in the plug in extension cords like they do on Christmas lights, but at a higher rating. So whats it like in other countries with consumers burning themseleves out of their homes? I saw a wiring setup in the privious thread about a light set up for drying. That looks good compared to some of things I have seen. And I must say that is the biggest power strip I have every seen. Today the winds are blowing 40 - 50 mph. A lot of areas are without power here today.
Jon
 
That's probably one of the biggest safety advantages of the system used in the UK and Ireland. EVERY plug has a fuse so it takes quite a bit of effort to overload an outlet.

If you go beyond the max (up to 13A) load the fuse blows.
Smaller appliances / thinner flexes are protected by lower rated fuses typically 3, 5, 10 and 13A fuses are used.
 
If only I had a penny availabble.

I quite understand the concept of a ring-circuit.
SPURS (raidal runs) taken off of a ring circuit bother me!

So what is the story in Brazil?
I had heard that there is often 110v and 220v in the same apartment (as ordinary line voltage), with the same plug configuration. One simply has to know which one is which... Can this be?

A realtively big fire hazard here was to insert copper coins
(a penny or pennies = $0.01) into a residential fuse-holder socket behind the fuse. The fuse-hoder is the female portion of an Edison screw-base and is actually the same size as (and looks just like) our lamp sockets. This practice was intended to avoid the "nusiance" of fuses blowing. The concept that fuses are to prevent overloading the wires and circuits, which would overheat then, which in turn would cause a fire was appranetly ignored.
 
In Ireland the ring circuit is not used very commonly at all. It seems the wiring practices here generally avoid it where possible.

Normally, we use 20A radials feeding 13A socket outlets (fused plugs)

Spurs from rings are generally quite safe, unless someone does a DIY job and ads a whole string of them. There are quite strict rules about how many spurs are allowed and a spur is limited to connecting a single outlet.

You also have to remember that *ALL* plugs are fused, so it's quite difficult to accidently overload the spur.

In general, the spur will behave like any outlet that's directly connected to the ring.

The statistics for fire and fatal electric shock in the home in Ireland anyway are pretty low.

E.g., I had a look at the stats here, every fatal electrical accident is recorded. Over a 10 year period there were 40 people (out of a population of 4.2 million) killed by electric shock. Of those only 6 were in the home and only 1 actually involved faulty wiring. 1 involved an accident while replacing a light fixture. the other 5 would have been prevented had the circuit been protected by an RCD (i.e. their installations dated to pre 1977) - one guy was fixing his washing machine while it was plugged in!, a kid inserted a nail into an extension cord outlet (bypassing the shutters with a pencil) in a garage, a person cut an extension cord running through a garden hedge supplying outdoor lighting etc...

The rest of the accidents were caused by people coming into contact with overhead lines or major power infrastructure, most commonly construction workers using machinery that was too high and contacted overhead lines. Most of this was on construction sites. Farmers rate quite highly in this number too ... again mostly coming into contact with overhead cables while driving machinery.

But overall, it would give me the impression that unless you're being stupid / foolhardy it's quite difficult to get electrocuted here accidently.
 
And it happened again yesterday. A 38 unit condo/apt complex burned down in Manchester,NH. It was built in the early 1900's so no sprinkler system like required today. The cause upon investigation was an electric coffee maker. They didn't go into details whether it was left on or shorted out, but non the less I feel this was preventable. Has anyone else notice that appliances that use a lot of power for heating such as coffee makers, irons etc. sometimes end up with the cord shorting out. I have had 2 coffee makers and 1 iron cord short out. The appliances were on and nobody near them and sparks just started flying out of the cord. This scares me so I never leave the coffee maker, toaster, convection oven, irons of all types, hair dryers or anything that makes a lot of heat plugged in. Since I have had it happen more than once I feel I am being safe instead of sorry.
Jon
Toggleswitch I haven't forgotten your request on the $ amount of the electric hot water. I have to find the disc for my scanner and reload, guess I forgot the last time I reformatted.
Will scan entire bill and post.
 
Adding a toggle switch enhances the safety and the desirabil

Remember the old first-issue "Mr. Coffee" brand coffee makers?

There was a separate witch for the brewing cycle and another for the warmer under the carafe. Today's drip coffee-makers simply cycle the heating element in the brewer on-and off, even when brewing is comlete and the water reservoir is empty. Seems to me if that thermostat fails there will be a melt-down.

Perhaps it is time to bring back that second switch........
 
~Toggleswitch: I haven't forgotten your request on the $ amount of the electric hot water.

Funny, it was my belief that the question was answered.
[I remember thinking his bill is THAT low?].

Thank you either way!
 
The incredible shrinking cord...

Notwithstanding the ever increasing number of safety regulations, I still see things that apparently escape the attention of the authorities. I am not referring to installations that predate the regulations, but to recent items.

First example: I had to replace a number of plugs that I had bought around 1995 when I discovered that the plastic material had become so brittle that a plug literally crushed to dust when I grabbed it to remove it from a socket. I was lucky not to touch the live metal parts inside.

Second example: The extension cord that I use for the vacuum cleaner is shrinking! First I had to replace the original molded-on socket on one end as the contacts were not functioning anymore (see picture, the white socket (B) is the replacement). And now swellings (A) are becoming apparent at the other end.

4-6-2008-15-34-4--mielabor.jpg
 
Here is a detail. You can see the wires inside that are bunching up. I am now waiting for the cord to burst open :)

4-6-2008-15-39-5--mielabor.jpg
 
Check that cord for <HAR> standard markings. If there aren't any on it, it shouldn't have been sold in the EU in the first place.

Sadly there are a lot of products getting onto the market from a certain large far eastern country that are bypassing the normal regulations and are quite dangerous.

Also, there's absolutely no way that plug could have complied with Dutch of EU regulations of it disintegrated.

Where did you buy it ?

Was it unusually cheap?
 
My this looks like a prime example of how cords short out all on their own!
Ok here is my electric service bill from feb 22, thru march 25th. 1,640 kwh regular electric
93 kwh hot water
Total charges this month $247.84
This includes all their distrbution chrgs, taxes, delivery chrgs, etc. etc. Down from $261.31 last month.
Jon
 

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