Not a heating boiler-Our GE SW transmitters use vapor cooling for the RF driver,PA and modulator and modulator driver tubes.The tubes are cooled by boiling water in their anode boilers to steam.Better cooling efficiency this way.We can add water to this at any time-even when the tx is running.the water first goes to a resevior tank-then into the system when needed.Would think a comfort heating system could work the same way.A small pump adds the water to the system from the resevior tank when the level gets low in the tube boilers.With the transmitter you have to be careful when adding water to it when you have drained the system for servicing.The power has to be on so the balance resevior pump will run and balance the levels.If the tube boilers get too full-they "boil over" causing "canvas tear" arcs!!
Let's Talk About Heating Shall We?
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Older Northeastern cities probably are mostly steam-heated, but I grew up in a suburb of New Haven built in the early 1950's and we had passive oil/air heating. It was very quiet and seemed to work quite well (as long as we paid the oil bill, that is). Now here in California even in the big cities it is mostly gas heat of some sort, or electric heat exchanger where there is not gas service. In SF, often older apartments/flats were heated by a single passive heater, usually a floor heater. Which would mean that the other rooms in the house would be cool if not downright cold in the winters, mild as they are. Now I'm enjoying a forced air gas heating system and it works very well, although not exactly quiet and one can usually tell when it's on.
This house has two fireplaces and I retrofitted both with fairly efficient inserts. But as luck would have it the air pollution authority bans burning anything but natural gas in fireplace most of the time in the winter. If we have a wet winter, there may be fewer "no burn" times, but last winter was rather dry and I never bothered to fire up either fireplace, despite having plenty of firewood.
The last apartment my Mom lived in SF originally had a nice steam heat system, something of a rarity there, with radiators in the living room and bedroom. But when the steam system broke down, the landlord gamed the rent control system and rather than repair the steam heating, switched all the apartments over to individual gas heaters. That way the landlord no longer had to pay for the fuel to heat the apartments, but kept the rent the same. The problem was the heater were installed in perhaps the worst locations in the apartments. In my Mom's case, it got put into the end of hallway near the entry, about as far as you could get from the living areas. Needless to say it didn't work worth a damn and she spent a lot of time standing by that contraption trying to keep warm. And so it goes.
This house has two fireplaces and I retrofitted both with fairly efficient inserts. But as luck would have it the air pollution authority bans burning anything but natural gas in fireplace most of the time in the winter. If we have a wet winter, there may be fewer "no burn" times, but last winter was rather dry and I never bothered to fire up either fireplace, despite having plenty of firewood.
The last apartment my Mom lived in SF originally had a nice steam heat system, something of a rarity there, with radiators in the living room and bedroom. But when the steam system broke down, the landlord gamed the rent control system and rather than repair the steam heating, switched all the apartments over to individual gas heaters. That way the landlord no longer had to pay for the fuel to heat the apartments, but kept the rent the same. The problem was the heater were installed in perhaps the worst locations in the apartments. In my Mom's case, it got put into the end of hallway near the entry, about as far as you could get from the living areas. Needless to say it didn't work worth a damn and she spent a lot of time standing by that contraption trying to keep warm. And so it goes.
In early days of steam heating it quickly got a bad name
Due to boiler explosions. This was because early designers ran systems with high pressure steam. Name escapes me but some bright blub came along and proved you could heat even the largest buildings with low pressure steam and that was that. IIRC systems do not go above one to three psi. That and of course making sure there is an automatic pressure relief valve that *works*. IIRC many local codes require testing of such and certification it is working.
This low pressure steam gave rise to "vapor" heating as it was called. Instead of a strong force of high pressure steam you hade a gentle flow of low. As mentioned above when such systems were working perfectly you never knew they were running. No banging, clanging, etc.. Just soft even heat.
http://www.achrnews.com/articles/103994-basic-steam-heat-revisited
http://inspectapedia.com/heat/Steam_Boiler_Repair.php
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-advice/steam-heating-dont-let-me-be-misunderstood-11678.shtml
Due to boiler explosions. This was because early designers ran systems with high pressure steam. Name escapes me but some bright blub came along and proved you could heat even the largest buildings with low pressure steam and that was that. IIRC systems do not go above one to three psi. That and of course making sure there is an automatic pressure relief valve that *works*. IIRC many local codes require testing of such and certification it is working.
This low pressure steam gave rise to "vapor" heating as it was called. Instead of a strong force of high pressure steam you hade a gentle flow of low. As mentioned above when such systems were working perfectly you never knew they were running. No banging, clanging, etc.. Just soft even heat.
http://www.achrnews.com/articles/103994-basic-steam-heat-revisited
http://inspectapedia.com/heat/Steam_Boiler_Repair.php
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-advice/steam-heating-dont-let-me-be-misunderstood-11678.shtml
Jim, Thanks for explaining the water control systems to me. I am from gas forced air parents. The Grandparents burned wood in iron stoves. The parents had a wood stove to keep the basement toasty. We had a shower stall down there nothing like a good hot shower in winter and toweling off next to wood heat. Pretty much a hillbilly sauna. I miss the good steady wood heat and the folks. -A
warmsecondrinse
Well-known member
My pleasure
I got a lot of the background/theoretical knowledge from my grandfather. The hands-on, not so much, lol. He'd worked the kinks out of his system nearly 40 years previously and had forgotten most of what he'd done and why over the years. I did a lot of reading and had a lot of trial & error.
The two biggest points for the homeowner/renter with single-pipe systems are these:
1. As mentioned by someone else, the valve at the bottom must remain open, otherwise one can't get heat or get rid of condensation and you'll get leaks.
2. One regulates the heat by means of the air valve at the opposite end of the radiator. Go to the coldest room, unscrew the air valve and blow into it. If you can't, it's clogged and you need a new one. Get one at Homo Depot or plumbing store for $2.99. Personally, I prefer Maid-O'-Mist brand adjustable.Screw the new valve in and try it for a few days. If the room is still too cold, you need to open the valve more (if adjustable) or exchange that valve for a faster one.
One thing you don't want to do is to have no valve in the radiator. No, there'll be no damage, but when the boiler turns off the steam will recede from the radiator, sucking air from the room in behind it. This'll make your radiator cool off faster and leave your room colder.
Jim
I got a lot of the background/theoretical knowledge from my grandfather. The hands-on, not so much, lol. He'd worked the kinks out of his system nearly 40 years previously and had forgotten most of what he'd done and why over the years. I did a lot of reading and had a lot of trial & error.
The two biggest points for the homeowner/renter with single-pipe systems are these:
1. As mentioned by someone else, the valve at the bottom must remain open, otherwise one can't get heat or get rid of condensation and you'll get leaks.
2. One regulates the heat by means of the air valve at the opposite end of the radiator. Go to the coldest room, unscrew the air valve and blow into it. If you can't, it's clogged and you need a new one. Get one at Homo Depot or plumbing store for $2.99. Personally, I prefer Maid-O'-Mist brand adjustable.Screw the new valve in and try it for a few days. If the room is still too cold, you need to open the valve more (if adjustable) or exchange that valve for a faster one.
One thing you don't want to do is to have no valve in the radiator. No, there'll be no damage, but when the boiler turns off the steam will recede from the radiator, sucking air from the room in behind it. This'll make your radiator cool off faster and leave your room colder.
Jim
jerrod6
Well-known member
When I was born, i lived in a single family home with steam heat that was delivered from the local steam plant via pipes into each home into the neighborhood. Several years later my parents moved and that house had hot water baseboard heat that was zoned into the three...first floor, second, and third. Each floor had a t-stat and it controlled the temp of the floor. My parents stayed in that house until each one died.
My first apartment was hot water radiator. It was one system, 1 thermostat for a four floor building with 10 apartments. I think mine was the largest, on the 2nd floor in the rear of the building, and it was always roasting. In the dead of winter (except the week when it was -4F) I was walking around inside with shorts, no shirt, and half of the windows open, while the girl in the apartment directly over me was walking around in a sweater.
Next place was a two story condo with heat pump. The building was a factory from the 1850s, but the interior was redone into condos so the heat pump was new. It kept me nice and toasty and even provided heat without electric backup heat down to 12F - so no complaints with it and it cooled like a champ.
Next place was a 4 story house with OLD OLD heat pump. It was done at 30F, so would use auxiliary heat after that. The house had 3 fireplaces 1 was a raised hearth in the kitchen that looked great, except that you had to actually use the thing to keep the kitchen warm. I hated that system but decided to sell the house instead of improving it.
My next and current is a 3 story house in which I replaced the old natural gas forced air system a some years after buying it. So I currently have natural gas forced air system with central air. My heating system is 2 stage and most of the time 1st stage is used. At first I wasn't sure because the air delivered at the registers is about 90F and seems cool even though the blower speed it low, however there are no drafts and everything stays at a constant temperature because the T stat keep the temp variation about 1/2 degree instead of 1 or 2.
If needed the system will move into second stage which provides heat output around 112F and a faster blower speed but with the lower heat output and slower speed I think the room temperatures stay very stable with no hot or cold periods.
My favorite is baseboard hot water but can't really complain too much about my system because it can heat, cool, and keep the rooms at a fairly constant temperature. If I buy new construction or build a new house it will be hot water radiant floor heat in each room.
One highrise condo near me uses heat pumps in each unit and the cost is paid by each owner but at a reduced cost negotiated with the electric company for the residents of the building. Another high rise uses natural gas that heats water and pumps it into each unit which has a convectors in each room. The convector units have blowers that suck a portion of air from the outside then blows the heat into each room. In the summer cold water fills the pipes instead of hot. The owners pay for heat and AC through their condo fee.
New construction condo units are also using heat pumps and letting the owners pay the bill. Most other single family houses use natural gas in some form to heat, however my neighbor across the street uses fuel oil.
As far as heating: I have this practice---no heat until November, so I won't turn the heat on until November 1.
My first apartment was hot water radiator. It was one system, 1 thermostat for a four floor building with 10 apartments. I think mine was the largest, on the 2nd floor in the rear of the building, and it was always roasting. In the dead of winter (except the week when it was -4F) I was walking around inside with shorts, no shirt, and half of the windows open, while the girl in the apartment directly over me was walking around in a sweater.
Next place was a two story condo with heat pump. The building was a factory from the 1850s, but the interior was redone into condos so the heat pump was new. It kept me nice and toasty and even provided heat without electric backup heat down to 12F - so no complaints with it and it cooled like a champ.
Next place was a 4 story house with OLD OLD heat pump. It was done at 30F, so would use auxiliary heat after that. The house had 3 fireplaces 1 was a raised hearth in the kitchen that looked great, except that you had to actually use the thing to keep the kitchen warm. I hated that system but decided to sell the house instead of improving it.
My next and current is a 3 story house in which I replaced the old natural gas forced air system a some years after buying it. So I currently have natural gas forced air system with central air. My heating system is 2 stage and most of the time 1st stage is used. At first I wasn't sure because the air delivered at the registers is about 90F and seems cool even though the blower speed it low, however there are no drafts and everything stays at a constant temperature because the T stat keep the temp variation about 1/2 degree instead of 1 or 2.
If needed the system will move into second stage which provides heat output around 112F and a faster blower speed but with the lower heat output and slower speed I think the room temperatures stay very stable with no hot or cold periods.
My favorite is baseboard hot water but can't really complain too much about my system because it can heat, cool, and keep the rooms at a fairly constant temperature. If I buy new construction or build a new house it will be hot water radiant floor heat in each room.
One highrise condo near me uses heat pumps in each unit and the cost is paid by each owner but at a reduced cost negotiated with the electric company for the residents of the building. Another high rise uses natural gas that heats water and pumps it into each unit which has a convectors in each room. The convector units have blowers that suck a portion of air from the outside then blows the heat into each room. In the summer cold water fills the pipes instead of hot. The owners pay for heat and AC through their condo fee.
New construction condo units are also using heat pumps and letting the owners pay the bill. Most other single family houses use natural gas in some form to heat, however my neighbor across the street uses fuel oil.
As far as heating: I have this practice---no heat until November, so I won't turn the heat on until November 1.
gusherb
Well-known member
No Heat til November 1st
If I waited that long, I'd freeze my tits off and possibly the pipes in the house too.
If I waited that long, I'd freeze my tits off and possibly the pipes in the house too.
Radiant Floor Heat
A few neighbors of mine have radiant heat in the floor. It is nice and comfortable, but in an unexpected sudden cold snap, you just cant turn the thermostat up and expect instant heat. Usually it takes 24-36 hours to get the temps regulated.
A few neighbors of mine have radiant heat in the floor. It is nice and comfortable, but in an unexpected sudden cold snap, you just cant turn the thermostat up and expect instant heat. Usually it takes 24-36 hours to get the temps regulated.
lordkenmore
Well-known member
No Heat til November 1st
I'm wondering how long I've been able to delay the use of heat. All I can think is October-something.
A lot, of course, depends on the place one is living, and also the year. The last time I lived in a real house, the people in charge of the property were up here working in early October. They place they were staying was poorly insulated, and it was ugly at night. Even with a kerosene heater and a wood stove, they practically froze. Meanwhile, I think I was barely using heat at all.
I'm already using heat this year, although only a bit early in the day, and again late at night. If this place had real insulation, rather than a few pieces of toilet paper and prayer, I might not need heat yet.
When I was really young, my father apparently decreed the heating season ran October (at the earliest) to May. Years later, my mother groused, er, commented how miserable it was some years making it to October...
I'm wondering how long I've been able to delay the use of heat. All I can think is October-something.
A lot, of course, depends on the place one is living, and also the year. The last time I lived in a real house, the people in charge of the property were up here working in early October. They place they were staying was poorly insulated, and it was ugly at night. Even with a kerosene heater and a wood stove, they practically froze. Meanwhile, I think I was barely using heat at all.
I'm already using heat this year, although only a bit early in the day, and again late at night. If this place had real insulation, rather than a few pieces of toilet paper and prayer, I might not need heat yet.
When I was really young, my father apparently decreed the heating season ran October (at the earliest) to May. Years later, my mother groused, er, commented how miserable it was some years making it to October...
We are all electric and we don't get a higher baseline of KWH's until Nov. 1st, so we don't use the heat until Nov. 1st every year. We have electric hydronic baseboard heaters and they work pretty good. They are quiet and clean and if we use them wisely the bill isn't too high. We also have a pellet stove insert and that works very well, but we can't use it on No Burn Days that the Bay Area Air Quality Control district imposes when it hasn't rained for a while. We also are on TOU electric service, so Mon. thru Fri from 12 pm until 6 pm we don't use the electric heaters. as the rate is MUCH higher during the peak use period. When it's not a No Burn day we can use the pellet stove to keep warm, but on No Burn days we freeze our asses off until 6 pm.
"I didn't stick around to see the aftermath. "
A wise decision. When some parents then began handing out spankings sometimes anything that breathed was caught up in the net. *LOL*
Personally as a child had a very well developed sixth sense for when trouble was about to break out and made myself scarce. Yeah I may have been labeled a "snitch" or "goody-two=shoes" but at least I could sit down and or had dinner with dessert.
*LOL*
A wise decision. When some parents then began handing out spankings sometimes anything that breathed was caught up in the net. *LOL*
Personally as a child had a very well developed sixth sense for when trouble was about to break out and made myself scarce. Yeah I may have been labeled a "snitch" or "goody-two=shoes" but at least I could sit down and or had dinner with dessert.
*LOL*
mayken4now
Well-known member
I light a fire
warmsecondrinse
Well-known member
"Another high rise uses natural gas that heats water and pumps it into each unit which has a convectors in each room. The convector units have blowers that suck a portion of air from the outside then blows the heat into each room. In the summer cold water fills the pipes instead of hot. The owners pay for heat and AC through their condo fee."
That's what I have now. But I believe the air is totally recirculated. But that doesn't matter because the place is very drafty and the old fashioned kitchen and bath vents suck enough air out that fresh air is is in overabundance. As some of you know, I have two 30-pint dehumidifiers going 24/7 whenever I'm home because this type of cooling does little for humidity.
Electric hydronic heat is better than conventional electric baseboard, IMO. With conventional you often feel a chill the moment it cuts out, whereas with hydronic the heat tapers off gradually. I'm not aware of any studies, but I wouldn't be surprised if less electricity is used as a result.
Radiant floor heat: That's what I'd like myself. Yes, it takes longer to heat the place up, but people are often comfortably warm at lower air temps because the floor (and everything everything on it, eventually) is warm to the touch.
Jim
That's what I have now. But I believe the air is totally recirculated. But that doesn't matter because the place is very drafty and the old fashioned kitchen and bath vents suck enough air out that fresh air is is in overabundance. As some of you know, I have two 30-pint dehumidifiers going 24/7 whenever I'm home because this type of cooling does little for humidity.
Electric hydronic heat is better than conventional electric baseboard, IMO. With conventional you often feel a chill the moment it cuts out, whereas with hydronic the heat tapers off gradually. I'm not aware of any studies, but I wouldn't be surprised if less electricity is used as a result.
Radiant floor heat: That's what I'd like myself. Yes, it takes longer to heat the place up, but people are often comfortably warm at lower air temps because the floor (and everything everything on it, eventually) is warm to the touch.
Jim
My family moved into a ranch style house in 1958 that was built in 1947. It was built on a concrete slab foundation and had radiant heat in the floors. I was 7 years old and I can still remember that it was the most comfortable heat that I have ever experienced before or since. There was never a cold spot anywhere in that home. However, the boiler would overheat sometimes and it would clank loudly. My dad showed me how to turn it down, since I was th oldest kid. It used to scare me when I had to do this because the pressure gauge would show in the red danger zone and I was afraid it would explode, but I never had a mishap, thankfully. Once, a pipe broke in the kitchen floor and the floor had to be jack hammered in order the get to the broken pipe to repair it.
My house has a four zone water filled radiator system which originally dates from the mod 1970s but has been upgraded with a new boiler and solar panels for the hot water tank.
It uses a Veissmann modulating, condensing natural gas boiler with two circuits.
The first circuit heats 3 radiator zones - each has its own circulation pump.
The second circuit feeds a heat exchanger in the hot water tank. When the thermostat on the tank needs heat, the boiler switches over to heating the hot water loop only. It increases its output temperature to close to 90 degrees C to rapidly bring the hot water tank up to temperature.
The radiators are all slim Runtal flat units with a graphite panel on the front. This allows them to be much less obtrusive than typical radiators and each also has its own thermostatic valve.
We've three programmable room thermostats as master controls across the whole system as well as a hot water control system that manages the needs for the domestic hot water tank and balances with the solar panels.
The room stats follow a programme during the day and keep the house at 22C and drop or back to 19C at night as I don't like being too hot at night.
There are also timers but, because I've a home office the house is rarely unoccupied so, the system usually just runs on stats.
A lot of people here would use timers so the heat will stop when they're not at home and come back on just before they get home from work / school etc.
In general it's not cold enough here in Ireland to warrant needing to run for heating 24/7.
Also, this house is pretty well insulated - I upgraded to near passive levels - triple glazing, wall insulation, massively upgraded roof insulation etc etc
I've cut my energy bills by 60% and the house is actually much warmer even with that huge cut in bills!
It uses a Veissmann modulating, condensing natural gas boiler with two circuits.
The first circuit heats 3 radiator zones - each has its own circulation pump.
The second circuit feeds a heat exchanger in the hot water tank. When the thermostat on the tank needs heat, the boiler switches over to heating the hot water loop only. It increases its output temperature to close to 90 degrees C to rapidly bring the hot water tank up to temperature.
The radiators are all slim Runtal flat units with a graphite panel on the front. This allows them to be much less obtrusive than typical radiators and each also has its own thermostatic valve.
We've three programmable room thermostats as master controls across the whole system as well as a hot water control system that manages the needs for the domestic hot water tank and balances with the solar panels.
The room stats follow a programme during the day and keep the house at 22C and drop or back to 19C at night as I don't like being too hot at night.
There are also timers but, because I've a home office the house is rarely unoccupied so, the system usually just runs on stats.
A lot of people here would use timers so the heat will stop when they're not at home and come back on just before they get home from work / school etc.
In general it's not cold enough here in Ireland to warrant needing to run for heating 24/7.
Also, this house is pretty well insulated - I upgraded to near passive levels - triple glazing, wall insulation, massively upgraded roof insulation etc etc
I've cut my energy bills by 60% and the house is actually much warmer even with that huge cut in bills!
We have had frost the last 3 nights. When I got out of bed this morning, I gave in and turned on the heat for about 1/2 hour as it was 64 F in the house...too cold for my liking.
I guess the best type of system to have depends partly on the climate where you live. Here in Spain we have central A/C in our apartment for the summer. In the winter it runs "in reverse" to provide heating (heat pump, forced air). The mild temperature during winter allows the heat pump to run very efficiently. Works great.
Including tax, we pay €0.16/kWh at all times for all consumption (US $0.18/kWh).
Spain has invested heavily in renewables and a couple of times has been generating more electricity through wind turbines than the whole of Spain has been consuming.
Including tax, we pay €0.16/kWh at all times for all consumption (US $0.18/kWh).
Spain has invested heavily in renewables and a couple of times has been generating more electricity through wind turbines than the whole of Spain has been consuming.
twintubdexter
Well-known member
countryguy...
Ah, wonderful frost...I remember it well
Ah, wonderful frost...I remember it well
Twintubdexter: something I remember well is when I took a tour of the wind turbine farm just the other side of the I-10 from you. Quite an awesome sight!
