Newer Kitchenaid Dishwasher --- Sad to say the least!

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Brent-Aucoin

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Well, I was on Craigslist today at work, and I saw an ad for a free Stainless Steel Kitchenaid dishwasher, 2 years old, come pick it up. I thought what the heck, it is on the way home, and I could play with it and see what the newer Kitchenaid is made of.
Nice married couple just bought a home, and they are redoing the kitchen.
I loooked at it and decided that this model is still on the floor at Lowes and other places. I was able to pick it up myself and load it in the wagon.
It is a Kitchenaid KUD101TJWHO, or something like that.
Well, I hooked it up in the garage, and could not get over how quiet it was. I then decided to open it up and trick the switch, and watch it in motion. I could not get over what I saw. To sum it up...a child could uriniate with harder pressure than this dishwasher! I could not get over what I was seeing! Every spot of the dishwasher was being hit with water, but it was like a nice summer drizzle! You don't need a demo glass with this one folks! You can just run it with the door open! I am serious!
I then drained it, and turned it on it's side to examine the bottom of the washer. I can say that I don't see how this machine passes for saftey! I am stunned at how it is all put together. The entire "sump" that contains the motor for washing, and the drain pump is all connected together. There is three pull clips that come out so easy. When you pull these baby clips out, the entire sump falls out! I could not get over this. After looking at this even more, I could not get over all of the "gutters" around electrical parts. Main wash motor, drain pump, and such have this "gutter" to drip the water away when there is a leak. I decided to fill it up and let it run, and see what I could see. No leaks. Wow! Then I started to just barely push on the "sump" housing, and water started coming from everywhere!
Are all of the Kitchenaid dishwasher built like this now? Even the high line $1,400 machines?
I am still stunned! I would not even give this machine away for use for the fact that I would be scared that this sump would leak, and shock someone, or flood their home.
Has anyone else noticed this junk?
Brent
 
I've seen the same thing with Frigidaire

I was shocked (not literally) when I saw the underside of my folk's Frigidaire. How it keeps from leaking is the real mystery. I don't know how it got through the UL testing. Maybe it didn't? These machines have had every ounce of quality designed out of them.
That thing is held together with screws sunk directly into the plastic tub - one repair and they are so loose, no idea how they should hold up to vibration. Their same age Maytag is a bit better, but not very confidence inspiring.
I've taken it on the chin here for critising US quality, but this is scary.
US companies wouldn't have sold that sort of stuff 30 years ago for fear the in-warranty costs would bankrupt their service departments. What on earth are folks thinking? These are not inexpensive but very cheap machines!
 
Well, I can say that my Bosch SHU43CU absolutely must run with the door closed. In fact you have to wait a few seconds after unlatching the door before opening it, if you don't want to get sprayed.

Too bad the new KA's are built so flimsy. I knew this was a problem with Frigidaire - my model was so rickety that the upper rack would routinely fall off its tracks, and the recirculation filter was so poorly designed it would let major food particles like sunflower seeds through to clog the spray arms (or redeposit on the dishes).

You might want to hook the machine up to a hot water tap and run a load of dirty dishes through it, just to see if it cleans at all. You might also check for a clogged spray tube or defective spray pump. A summer drizzle just doesn't sound right to me.
 
That sounds really scary-the flimsy-sump and pump assembly held by clips-makes me wonder if vibration from the motor could loosen them and---wet floor!!instead of washed dishes.Could double as a floor flooder-washer.A dishwasher to be installed by a jokester.After hearing this-may be time to stock up somehow on VINTAGE Hobart KA machines.Its really sad how WP has trashed KA reputation.WP is now doing it with the KA mixer--I have a newer one and put it away-got out and use my older one instead-the newer KA mixer motor makes the most disturbing "whine".And their food processers are now made in China.I am wondering if its piddle spray is due to something clogged in its "drop-out" pump.Thats probably why those folks wanted to dump it for free.And WP-KA calls these things "improvements"??
 
But, it makes LESS NOISE and it uses LESS WATER! It has to be an improvement, no? Brent, did you notice it doing the stop and start surging thing? The sump is so shallow that the circulation pump cannot maintain a good head of pressure during constant circulation so to clean stuff in corners of the upper rack and deal with tough soil, the machine pulses the pump on and off to let all of the water return to the sump and then blast it up when the pump restarts. When we went for training on these they emphasized how important it was in replacement installations, that the old dishwasher's supply and drain lines had to be lowered so that the new tall tub was installed absolutely level because the sump was so shallow and so close to the floor. KA now uses less water and a smaller pump to power the 4 way hydro sweep in the bottom (but maybe now it is a hydro whisk-broom), a middle wash arm and then a wash arm that is far larger than the old Constant Rinse at the top of the tank. Until they started the surging it was a system that even smashed potatoes could survive and, while maybe not left totally on the dish on which they entered the machine, portions survived transplantation to the inner door, the tank walls and especially the little mesh clutch purse that is the small items basket, which is actually one of the major filtering components in the system. I put extra insulation around my 18s and, while I can hear them when they are washing and rinsing, I can talk on the phone, listen to the TV or stereo, or hold a conversation with someone in the kitchen without having to raise our voices to be heard.
 
are you serious? i had no idea the new tall tub WPKA machines where so horrible. i knew they had issues...I'm perplexed.

Our GE Triton XL fills with very little water also, but there is no cavitation, the pump runs at full pressure. How are they able to do it? but not WP?

I guess this enforces my recommendations pertaining to new tall tub machines to be GE and Maytag.....

though, i've very worried as to what WP is going to do to Matag's dishwashers, which are very good right now.
 
John,

no way would they put it up on their site. I just went there, and now I think I need to go find a diabetic and beg some insulin. What a discustingly sugar-sweet amount of "we are the best" nonsense.
Horrid.
Interesting side note, the "best machines" in their contest - whatever that was - were built from 1949-51. Of course they made no mention of the fact that they were not from them.
Sheesh - everything bad I said about using a good brand name to sell bad stuff - just take it and mulitply by 10.
Now to go find something against the sugar shock.
 
Tom,
You hit it right on the nose about the pulse / pause of the pump. I had a thought that this was what it was doing to get the pressure, during each cycle, but you really confirm what it is doing.
Although I think that they wanted to make these machines more "energy wise," I also think that they lowered the water use, and pressure, to cut back on the cost of the making of the tub. I mean this dishwasher tub is paper thin, and not to mention the scary construction of the sump. I think if you put the tough "Hobart" pump and motor into this machine, it would be much, MUCH louder than any vintage machine out there. So they save a ton of money on the cheap construction of the entire dishwasher, and have to put a weak pump and motor in it so it can be quiet.
Tom, what did you use for insulation on your KDS-18? I am going to be putting mine in the kitchen soon, and was thinking of different types of insulation. Curious to hear about what you used.
John, I took out a Maytag "Quiet Series 300." I used it for awhile, and I agree with you, it is a better dishwasher for washing than this Kitchenaid. It is not built any better however. The plastic tub is even worse! They anchor it into your cabinet around the door opening. I could not figure out why. Until I took that anchor off, and pulled it out. It is installed this way so the entire machine does not collapse over time. I am serious. The tub is like a 2 liter Coke bottle, in thickness. I have to give the Maytag that I pulled out credit however because the pump is much stronger, and on the Maytag, and you can pick an extra rinse. That is one thing I really don't like about the newer dishwashers. Most have only one rinse. I am just not okay with that.
What I have in the kitchen now is a "Kitchenaid Superba" KUDS24. It is a WP built machine with the first stainless steel tubs. It rocks. It is very powerful. It will clean anything! Super quiet! It only has one rinse however, in any cycle that you pick. It is like they forgot to add that little "extra rinse" button in the options section.
Brent
 
Johb, A customer replaced her older Maytag, plates on top dishwasher with one of the new Maytag tall tubs and told John that it does not wash as well as her old Maytag, so maybe sticking with the standard size tubs is best, even though the Maytag tall tub pump is driven by a more powerful motor than the KA tall tub. When WP introduced the new dishwashers several years ago, we noticed that some, including the tall tubs, were Energy Star models and some were not. Then we looked at the individual models and saw that the long-successful WP design with the fine filter and soil separater which cleaned very well was not energy star rated. We figured they made machines to save energy and machines to wash and dry dishes well, but they were not the same models.

Brent, to insulate the built in 18, I used the insulation that is sold rolled up for furnace ducts. It is foil-faced fiberglass. It is not really thick, so I was able to run strips of it from the top front to the rear bottom and then from side to side across the back. I put a big fluffy piece of fiberglass that had plastic on one side behind the lower panel and extended it down to the floor behind the toe plate. I took the door panel off and used some of that thick adhesive automobile sound insulation on the inner door, arranged to go around the detergent and rinse agent dispensers. It really dampens the sound. John had some old pieces of those 2ft X 4ft suspended ceiling sections that had the white surface with maybe 1/2 or 3/4 of an inch of yellow fiberglass on the back so we lined the cutout with a layer of these and used two along the back since it was an outside wall. We installed them with the fiberglass facing in so that if there was a fire, the fiberglass would not be a fuel. Years ago, during very cold snaps before the advent of "winter lite", John and Jeff would get lots of service calls for dishwashers that would not fill and after going on a few service calls, they discovered that all of the fill valves had frozen just enough to keep them from opening. So the rest of the callers were told to aim a blow dryer under the dishwasher and keep the doors under the sink open and the problem was solved.

When I had the first two electronic Superbas that only gave one rinse, I would wait for the drain from the main wash and would fill a 3 quart pan with very hot water. As soon as the machine stopped filling for the 1 quart PURGE, I would quickly open the door a bit and pour in the 2.5 or 3 quarts of water and then restart it. It was enough water to cause some circulation over the dishes and the drain was long enough to completely pump out the gallon or so of water before THE RINSE. It was enough to keep down the sort of dusty deposits of dried detergent that I saw in so many of those machines, but it was not what I considered an automatic dishwasher since I had to add water to get better rinsing, so I passed them both along. I also missed the Constant Rinse shpritser at the top of the tank. But my greatest beef with those machines was that they filled for the first wash, did not circulate the water, but just sat there heating water (at the full 1400 watts) which was then thrown on the cold dishes. If the machines had sprayed water over the dishes and then stopped to heat, they could have absorbed a little of the heat and at least been soaking while the water was heating. Maybe it would have had to heat too long if the water was cooled by running the pump while the machine filled, but it just seemed stupid to me. After that wash, the water sitting in the pipe for 10 to 15 minutes had cooled and that was the fill for the main wash where did not stop to heat, but did heat (at 700 watts)while circulating the water .
 
Tomturbomatic,
Great idea with the insulation. I notice the difference in the KDS21 and KDS23, the amount of insulation is doubled, and added even on the toe-kick. The 23 is three X more quiet than the 21. I might try this on the KDS20, which was perfectly described as a "hurricane in a box".
Bobby in Boston
 
I agree. It seems that all the standard tub dishwashers are the way to go if you can get their hands on them. They seem to be the only machines worthy of the name "dishwasher."
I went to Lowe's today and inspected the Maytag tall tubs. I was, nevertheless, impressed with them. they didn't cross my mind as "garbage". The plastic tub ones seemed ok, but i didn't take them out and check tub thickness. The Maytag stainless steel ones did seem more durable.
As far as the standard tub maytags with that center tower gizmo, they have always gotten great reviews from relatives.

Like I said, we have 2003 GE Triton XL and it is by far the best tall tub machine i've ever seen. The newest GE tall tubs seem to be the same, though with smaller jets...i don't know why. But i'd recommend those for a tall tub machine, and as far as i know, GE machines still do a minimum of 2 rinses.
 
tank insulation and Maytag tall tub dw

The greatest insulation I've used on a dishwasher is rubber coated jute or hair padding. The rubber coating is kind of red-brown. It was an old fashion rug padding and I have not been able to find it anymore, but on my Westinghouse rollout, I glued that all over the tub, the tub cover and the metal cabinet that it slides in and out of. It really muffles noise and keeps heat in. The rollout is the last model impeller machine from Westinghouse and was in the line with the new wash arm machines in the early 60s. The front is completely plain and flat like one of the new tall tubs except for a very small timer knob at the top right.

One thing I really like in the Maytag tall tub machines is the full wash arm under the top rack. I wonder if you blocked most of the holes in the wash arm at the top of the tank it would give the two wash arms more power. Maybe the solution to this low water madness is to pull a Tim the Toolman Taylor and install a remote pump next to the dishwasher. Something like that might just blow the door off these flimsy new machines though.
 
upon further inspection

I was at my Lowe's today, filling out an application [hopefully for the appliance dept.] and went to look at the tall tub Maytags even further. The last time i looked at Maytag was at the Menards, and all their machines were kinda junky. Now these Lowe's machines on the other hand were very nice machines. I was able to lean a few forward and did not find the plastic tubs on the Maytags to be any thinner or thicker than the GE or Whirlpool machines. they all looked to be within the same thickness. Now unless the Maytag plastic reacts funny to heat and has a lower plasticity point, well i don't know.

Until Whirlpool rapes Maytag, i will continue to endorse the Maytag and GE tall tub machines, and inform all i know to avoid Whirlpool's tall tub machines like the plague.

ALSO: for the low water pressure in that KitchenAid...Brent, did you check that chopper screen? it could be blocked. for some reason i've heard tons of complaints about that chopper screen clogging up, starving the pump of water. I say this because until i see it in person with a BRAND NEW machine, i refuse to believe Whirlpool would be stupid enough to use pump cavitation as a means to save water and wash dishes. There must be something clogged.

As far as many complaints from people saying crud collects in their corner glassware in the upper rack. i do notice that these middle arms are kinda short and do not reach the corners too well. Even in our awesome GE Triton XL at home, if cups are of a certain dimension, the middle arm will not get water into the corner cups.

Personal observations and opinions.......agree? disagree? have at it.
 
Tom,
Great advice on the "sound proofing." The more that I think about it however, the more I really think that I like the sounds that I hear. It is really a toss up at this point. The example of "Hurricane in a Box," I really love it! Was this an ad for Kitchenaid at one time? This is really what it sounds like!
On the new Kitchenaid that I picked up for free. John, I have taken it all apart. No cloggs. I would imagine it would clean. It makes sure that the water is a certian temp before it cycles to the next cycle. It will however never make it to my kitchen.
Tom, how many KDS-18's do you have?
Brent
 
Tom,
Great idea about "sound proofing" the KDS-18. I think about making it quiet, and then go back to enjoying the sounds. It is not in the kitchen as of yet, but on it's way. I think about "Hurricane in a Box!" I love that. Was that an actual Ad slogan from Kitchenaid? This is really what the Hobart machines sound like.
About the newer Kitchenaid John that I got off of Craigslist for free. I have taken it apart, and sadly, there are no clogs. Put it all back together again, (and it did not take much effort) and it still works the same.
Tom, how many KDS-18's do you have? How many Kitchenaid's do you have?
Brent
 

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