Opinions Needed on Souping-Up a 1970s Helical Drive Maytag

[Unimatic1140]

Hi everyone, so I've been wanting to try "souping-up" a Maytag washer in a similar fashion to what I did to my 1958 GE. I'd like to do a deep-tub model too, but I thought I'd start with a standard capacity machine to see the feasibility of all this. I found a cheap Maytag A107 in decent shape that the only issue seemed to be a leaking fill-flume air-gap which was an easy fix. The leak caused some rusting issues over time, but nothing major.

I've taken out the original motor, motor carriage clutch assembly and drain pump. I've installed a 3-Phase VFD operated 1hp-3450rpm motor and separate electric pump. The 21st century motor doesn't need a clutch as the VFD will monitor how much amperage the motor is drawing and bring the tub up speed slowly depending on the water level left in the wash basket as the pump is draining away the water. I can select agitation speeds from 10 to 133 oscillations per minute, the 133opm super speed agitation is SUPER COOL to say the least (videos to come after I've completed the machine)! I have lots of cool ideas on how to modify the steps in the cycles of the original timer by simply using a relay or two combined with the VFD.

As for spin right now I have it set to spin at 775rpm, which is as smooth as silk. I'd like to go higher, however I have one major concern that I'd like to see if anyone has some opinons on how to do this safely. My concern is the transmission counter-weight. I've seen quite a few members on aw up their spin speed to 756rpm with the 50hz pulley mounted on a 60hz motor. I was wondering if anyone who has done this had any issues with the counter-weight? My concern at speeds higher than 800rpm is the counter-weight may give way and cause the weight to fly through the cabinet creating a possibly dangerous situation. For all I know the tranmission top and weight bolts are strong enough to handle 1140rpm spin, however I have no way of knowing this. So I've come up with four possible scenarios...

#1 Use the orbital transmission which has no counterweight but in doing that the machine will lose the long-strong agitation which I much perfer over the short-stroke agitation.

#2 Somehow reinforce the weight with extra brackets attached to the transmission and change the bolts to grade 8 reinforced steel bolts.

#3. Line the cabinet with some type of reinforcement metal or ballistic fabric like Kelvar to catch the weight safely if it gives way.

#4. Keep the spin at 775rpm and call it a day (hmmmmph, I ususally don't give up that easily lol).

So I'm curious to hear the combined knowledge of AW members if this is even possible to do safely.

Here are some pictures of the machine, new components and of course the counter-weight itself. Thanks everyone!

 

[maytag85]

Increasing the spin and wash speed will definitely help it perform a little better, but thing thing I’d be afraid of is the higher probability of the transmission slinging oil do to the faster spin speed.

Members like QSD-DAN might be able to help since he has more knowledge about Maytags than I do, and yes I do have some knowledge about them, but I don’t have the knowledge like he does about them.

 

[yogitunes]

for safety of the higher spin speeds, I would replace the bolts/nuts with something more heavy duty....

and don't think I would take the spin speed higher than 900 to 1000 rpm's...

something your going to have to experiment when your set up, is how high a spin speed you can go, and keep everything still in balance, figuring on the whole transmission power unit is spinning as well....

as we know, some machines operate fine within a certain spin speed, some increase wont affect much, but increasing too much, and excessive vibration may start to show up....

looking forward to your finished product.....

 

[lowefficiency]

If you're willing to do some math, you could probably ease your concerns by calculating the forces of a liberated counterweight. You can measure the mass of the counterweight, its distance from the rotation axis, and then calculate the energy it would contain at your desired spin speed. Then look up the properties for sheet steel at the thickness of the cabinet, using the smallest dimension of the counterweight stack as your contact surface area assuming the worst case. If it hit the front panel, the threads on those two cabinet screws at the bottom, or the clips up top, might yield before the sheet metal perforates. Either one might absorb enough force though to lessen the injury risk.

Or just buy a junk washer, take it to an empty field, attach your motor, and crank it up to "11" until it *does* go pop, and see what happens!

On a more practical note, you would probably see more benefit if you actually took the time to re-balance the transmission assembly after rebuilding it. Being asymmetrical as it is, the fluid being flung to one side is part of the balancing equation - most older transmissions are probably either out of balance one direction from transmission fluid loss, or out the other direction from taking on water. The assembly would have to be dynamically balanced, as static balancing would not be representative of the mass distribution it would see at speed. (You may get close by statically balancing it with the counterweight facing upwards vertically?)

Adding "safety straps" to retain/reinforce the counterweights would change the balance... so you probably wouldn't want to do that unless you added the equivalent mass on the opposite side of the transmission.

 

[vacbear58]

Higher Spin Speed

Robert
I will alert Mike, Mathew and Steve who might be able to give some advice and maybe pictures. Although the Maytag is a rare bird over here Hotpoint UK produced a top loader that spun at 1050 rpm for years!

Good luck
Al

 

[combo52]

Making a MT spin at 1000-1200 RPMs

I really doubt that the transmission counter weight would be a problem at this speed and if it did come loose the cabinet is strong enough to contain it.

 

I would be more concerned about the concrete ballast ring on the wash basket failing, I have seen a Unimatic where the balance ring failed and it destroyed the washer.

 

It would also help balance if you drill out the holes in the bottom of the wash basket for faster draining and let the electric drain pump pump all the water out before trying to spin so the clothing is better balanced in the wash basket.

 

John L.

 

[combo52]

Speeding Up a 1970s MT Washer

The short stroke orbital transmission is also a much better choice to speed up, not so much because of possible balance issues but because a short stroke just makes more sense and works better a high speed.

 

Think about the other fast agitation designs like FD, Philco Apex etc.

 

Trying to drag a large agitator at a high speed is just crazy, speeding up your 59 GE worked better because GE had a smaller agitator and had fairly anemic agitation to begin with.

 

John L.

 

[Unimatic1140]

Thanks everyone for your great responses. I thought of trying to figure out the math but there are so many variables involved and trying to get the measurements correct and verifying the results may prove problematic or inaccurate.

So far I haven't seen any vibration issues with 775rpm, but we will see as I slowly experiment with increasing the speed, the Maytag suspension system just may surprise us all.

John I too thought the other weak point may be the balance ring which I believe is full of concrete, however I figured with the tub spinning inside the metal outer tub and then the cabinet outside of that would provide two layers to stop any debris that may fly. I agree about with you about the faster-stroke smaller stroke agitation, however the super fast agitation speed I created in these machines is only used to pull the load down and get it turning over (just like I do in the GE), once it's turning over (15 to 20 seconds if that) I would lower the agitation speed to near normal. If the Maytag works anything like the GE, the load will keep turning over nicely once the speed is reduced. My tests so far has shown this is likely to be the case.

Tomorrow I'll work on getting the washer's timer to communicate with the VFD motor controller via a relay. This should be easier in the Maytag as its electrical schematic design is much less complicated than the GE design.

 

[qsd-dan]

Robert....playing with a MAYTAG???

Is it snowing in Hell or did I just teleport through a wormhole that lacks all logic and reason? Seriously, man, find the nearest mental facility and get some treatment ASAP

On a more serious note...

I think the bolts and weight should hold up fine at higher spin speeds without any issues. A severe out of balance at high spin speeds may pose some interesting effects though.

The main problem I found modifying my '72 A806 for higher spin speeds was getting the tub nut adjusted correctly. I tightened it up a bit tighter than normal and it still let loose during a dry test at full speed. Not a pretty sound. It's also a challenge to bang on that tub nut with high force at an awkward angle without throwing the tub off kilter. I believe this will be the weak area of higher spin speeds, especially in harsh out of balance situations.

That damper concerns me. There's a lot of corrosion at the north west end of the assembly and that can wash out the silicone lubricant and any corrosion on the damper itself will cause friction in the mating area if it's rough. That area needs to be clean and all lubed up for best results (enter Toggleswitch giggle) and the damper should have a mirror like finish without any imperfections. You'll most likely have to play around with spring tensions to achieve smooth and linear spins so it doesn't chase your Unimatics around the laundry room.

 

[Unimatic1140]

Hi Dan, how did you increase the spin speed with a 50 cycle pulley to 756rpm (or there about) or did you use some other means and go higher?

 

[qsd-dan]

Hi Robert,

I used a 50hz pulley on the motor but swapped out the original 63 OPM gear set with 54 OPM gears from an older transmission. This brought regular agitation speed from 77 OPM's down to 67.5 while retaining higher spin speeds.

 

[Unimatic1140]

An update...

So I have the VFD/Motor Controller now installed in the machine. I'm up to 840rpm without any issues so far. I'll keep slowly experimenting with increasing the spin speed until I detect anything unusual.

While I'm using the original machines timer to control the cycle, by using two relays I'm able to improve on the cycle a bit. By using one standard relay I'm able to control the motor and pump from the original motor's yellow wire. When the timer energies the yellow wire it's calling for agitation, I'll give further explanation on how I'm doing this with a single relay in a later post. I'm also incorporating one "off-delay" relay to split the pause time on the timer into 30 seconds each, the first half for agitation and the second half for spin/drain. There is no need for a pause to reverse the motor with a modern motor, so now the Maytag goes switches from Agitation right into Spin just like a old solenoid Speed Queen or a Frigidaire Unimatic washer.

Here is the update cycle. I've increased wash and rinse agitation by 30 seconds. A 2 1/2 rinse agitation period is an improvement for sure. I've increased the first spin from 4 minutes to 5.5 minutes and the final spin from 5 minutes to 6.5 minutes. Here a comparison cycle chart between the original and update Regular/Normal cycle...

<img src="https://www.automaticwasher.org/TEMP/MAYTAG/Updated Cycle.jpg"

 

[norgeway]

If its like every single Maytag

I ever had,,,5 all together You better bolt it down, they always walk around and cut off normally I cant imagine one of the miserable things speeded up..I think the agitation could be drastically speeded up , they agitate about half as fast as a Norge or GE anyway.

 

[lowefficiency]

>> You better bolt it down, they always walk around and cut off

The unbalance switch should trip before they get enough momentum to walk around...
Did you have the machines leveled and all four feet tightened down?

 

[lowefficiency]

>> I'm also incorporating one "off-delay" relay to split the pause time on the timer into 30 seconds
>> each, the first half for agitation and the second half for spin/drain.

Clever approach! So being a single-speed Fabric-Matic machine, and spin/drain now partially linked to agitation stop with your relays, I would assume that things could get interesting if you ran your upgraded machine on a Delicates cycle, with the intermittent wash agitation?

>> There is no need for a pause to reverse the motor with a modern motor, so now the Maytag goes switches
>> from Agitation right into Spin just like a old solenoid Speed Queen or a Frigidaire Unimatic washer.

I've been studying the Maytag timers, specifically the Kingston timers, and I believe the system is more nuanced than that. Maytag (and/or Kingston) engineers were masters at using various components of the machine as digital logic elements, to create operational sequences much more complicated than the timer diagrams indicate at first glance. In particular, they leveraged every trick they could to squeeze multiple actions into the same minute of the timer sequence, expanding the functionality of the machine despite the precious limited number of steps allowed by the timing wheel assembly. (A good example of this is the A408, which has three "OFF" positions on the dial, but only one time segment in the diagram where the timer actually explicitly cuts the timer motor power.)

Long story short- If you look deeper at that wash-to-spin changeover, I think you will find that that minute of pause, while necessary for a reversing motor, was also a point where many other events were occurring, some of which utilize that pause for "break-before-make" switching to avoid shorts or faulty logic within the timer. This also provided some safety margin for manufacturing tolerances and material wear/fatigue over the lifespan of the timer, where the timings of some contacts could drift slightly in relation to the others.

 

[Unimatic1140]

Hi Dave, very cool observations! You are very much correct about the Kingston timers, they turn much slower than the older Mallory timers and do things in-between increments during the rotation of the dial. The timer is all original, I haven't modified it in anyway so the pauses still do everything internally they are suppose to do. I just changed how the machines handles the timer's signals.

You're also very much correct about the delicate cycle, it won't work properly with my new design. The two one minute delicate "SOAK" periods in between the normal speed agitation would end up agitating for 30 seconds and spin/draining for 30 seconds. Of course that would make for some great rinsing lol! But since I now have the ability to turn the agitation speed all the way down to a very mild hand-wash, I wouldn't use the delicate cycle anyway. I could probably figure out a way around this, but it isn't worth the time and expense. I'd much rather have one cycle and variable speeds. As for the spin speed, I rarely if ever use anything but top speed for everything so for this experimental project I'm simply going to have one set spin speed and a single knob for setting the variable/infinite agitation speed.

Sometime when I reproduced this into a deep-tub machine, I'll probably spend more time configuring more relays to make it work with all cycles. A Mallory timer machine would be my preference to do this to as it will be easier to work with.

I did have one issue with this timer and that was the pause before the rinse fill. For what ever reason during that pause they designed the circuit to energize the yellow agitation wire (keeping neutral out of the circuit) and also energizing both the EMPTY and FULL wires on the water level control. I have no clue why they did that, but I'm sure it was for as you said "so they could squeeze multiple actions into the same minute of the timer sequence". The problem I had was during the pause before the rinse fill (I wanted spin to continue in that increment) the machine would stop and dry agitate as the yellow wire was energized calling for agitation on my main control relay). So what I did was to install a second relay before the main control relay to prevent voltage from the yellow wire from reaching the main control relay if there was voltage on the EMPTY wire of water level switch. It worked and spin continues as I want during the pause before the rinse fill. I love playing with relays like this and reading wiring diagrams, I know I'm a big nerd .

 

[swestoyz]

Ok, Robert. This is all real cool and great - but we are DYING for some video!

 

[Unimatic1140]

but we are DYING for some video!

Lol, I'll get to that as soon as I can Ben! There are a few adjustments I want to make first.

 

[Unimatic1140]

As promised, here is the video. I recorded it in 1080p resolution and uploaded it to YouTube that way, however YouTube is not showing 1080p as choice, only 480p, so I'll have to research how to show the higher resolution. But for now here is my first video of the Maytag unlike no other...