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Yeah, good thing those non-American terrorist have the same rights as Americans. Give them a trial and/or let them go so they can behead more homosexuals and kill more women for talking to non-related men and blow up building for printing cartoons of Mohammed. Or better yet, let them go so they fly home and let our military take care of them properly.
 
It doesn't matter, Peter.

It doesn't matter, Peter. The US constitutions discusses limitations on federal and State power, NOT granting rights.

What the court ruling does is to remind the government of the united States of America that these rights are NOT just for US citizens, are NOT suspendable in any way.

Personally, I believe that if more people were willing to be citizens rather than sheep, we would have little issue with terror.

But y'all know my feelings on Citizenship.

Now, having said that: I actually saw a reference to an organization called "Queers for Palestine." Hello? In any of these societies, most queers are persecuted and are often killed.

Under no circumstances would I say that a non-US citizen has no rights in the USA. Historically, every time this has happened, soon the citizens lost their rights as well.

Nate
 
Hi Nate!

If I recall rightly (was a long time ago and I was younger than then I am now), it was this very abnegation of subjects' rights by some guy named George which led to the revolution...

Nothing, absolutely nothing in the Supreme Courts' decision says these murdering bastards get to go free. All it says is that they have to be taken before a real, American judge and that judge be presented with reason to keep them in prison until their trial. No more. No less.

Peter, you can't have it both ways. Either the US Constitution stands over the president or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then the US is a dictatorship. It's really that simple.
Think it through to the end. Let's pretend the day comes when the republicans are out of office. Now the democrats are in office - and not just any democrats, but howling left-wingers. Folks who make me look more conservative than you.

Would you really and truly want them to be free of constitutional restraints?

Some of those folks in Guántanamo are such monsters, I'd take them out and flay them alive if I could. Others may be innocent victims of the injustice non-democracies like the Islamic world perpetrate on their "citizens"...sold for a few bucks.
I don't know, and neither do you. That is what a proper court of law is for.

None of the bastards who were freed and then turned around and attacked us again would have been freed if the US had followed the rules of engagement the Army wanted to apply in the beginning. But you know those knee-jerk, left-wing apologists in the US military. Whining welfare queens, all of them...
 
Exactly, Panthera!

One of the most beautiful things about the USA is its constitution.

It means, among other things, that excesses of one party CANNOT take the republic down.

Another beautiful thing is the electoral college - the US version of PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION.

If the folks at Gitmo are guilty, they should be punished - continued to be imprisioned, executed, whatever - just kept away from people who they mean to harm.

If they are innocent, they should go free.

Since I look in horror at BOTH Presidential candidates in this election (Dr. Ron Paul excepting, but he's not a serious contender), I'm very grateful for our Constitution.

If you have two political alternatives, and one chooses to kill you with electricity, and the other with a firing squad, what do you choose?

Nate
 
Well, Nate...

Depends how you define "you", don' it?
:-)))

In the end, what matters most to me is who will chose the next Supreme Court Justices. We saw last week how those chosen by the neo-cons feel about the US Constitution. We also saw how those chosen by conservative republicans and democrats chose.
Major difference.

Until the republican party returns to the basics set out by Eisenhower, Goldwater, Lincoln...there is no choice in my mind but to go with the folks who, when push comes to shove, are defending the Constitution. It hurts you more than me, and I hope the next four years don't prove me wrong, but, well, gosh - like I said, last week just blew me out of the water. I could hug Kennedy for his moral courage and solid grounding in the US Constitution. But he is all that stands between a constitutional republic and the abyss.

You know, I think McCain would have been a pretty good VP for Obama in a lot of ways. Just not president.

Anyway - there IS always Mr. Barr.
There now, I bet that makes you feel much better!
 
George Will

Here's a quote from another one of those knee-jerk leftist-commie-pinko-traitors:
"No state power is more fearsome than the power to imprison. Hence the habeas right has been at the heart of the centuries-long struggle to constrain governments, a struggle in which the greatest event was the writing of America's Constitution, which limits Congress's power to revoke habeas corpus to periods of rebellion or invasion. Is it, as McCain suggests, indefensible to conclude that Congress exceeded its authority when, with the Military Commissions Act (2006), it withdrew any federal court jurisdiction over the detainees' habeas claims?

As the conservative and libertarian Cato Institute argued in its amicus brief in support of the petitioning detainees, habeas, in the context of U.S. constitutional law, "is a separation of powers principle" involving the judicial and executive branches. The latter cannot be the only judge of its own judgment," - George F Will.
 
the problem that I have...

...is that the Left in America doesn't believe in the Constitution any more than the Right does - they just want to frustrate the right with THEIR OWN idea of tyranny.

If Al Gore gets his way, the cost of energy will rise exponentially. Can you PLEASE tell me what 'carbon taxes' will do , anyway? Why is giving money to an already bloated government going to HELP pollution (of greenhouse gases, of particulate matter, or whatever)?

And it was Mr. Gore who championed the idea of a National ID card (shame!) and it was the Republicans who gave us the "Real ID Act' which implemented it as part of a driver's license (Double Shame!).

Now, let's talk about the fourth Amendment to the Constitution - the one that says that people shall be secure in the papers and possessions, except by search with a due warrant. Mr Oh-So-Popular Clinton wanted a "Fourth Amendment Exemption" when dealing with those oh so evil kill the CHILDREN firearms. Hello? Not to mention signing the 'Defense of Marriage Act' and 'Dont Ask, Don't Tell' and being responsible for sending troops to Somalia and bombing a pharmaceuticals plant in Ethiopia to distract attention from Monica Lewinsky.

Next we can talk about King George, who seems to believe that any and all human rights are simply privileges.

I cannot understand why State citizens are not at all concerned, for the most part, of the assault on their freedoms. Oh yes, they all have 100 inch televisions a la Fahrenheit 451. THAT is what freedom means to most people any more.

The freedom to do, to be, to think, to run your own lives and your own affairs -- that is considered outmoded, and old fashioned now.

Disgusting.

Nate
 
"If you have two political alternatives, and one chooses to kill you with electricity, and the other with a firing squad, what do you choose?"

Well first - you stop relying on hyperbole, misinformation and good old American victimhood, and get off your behind and engage yourself in politics. It's not that difficult - you just have to show up, and be able to intelligently explain your positions in a debate. That involves actually researching what you are going to talk about, and being able to cite sources for your information.

For instance, you don't like Al Gore's position on climate change? Then present your own. But don't just google "climate change anti Al Gore", because all you'll get is a bunch of nutcase websites that are probably underwritten by oil companies and utilities. Instead, you have to define your position, and find facts to support it.

Or take this hysteria about the Supreme Court decision on Gitmo detainees. When one reads up on it, one finds that constitutional scholars, both right and left, were concerned about the unilateral stripping of the detainees rights. Military officials were concerned about how it would affect our future POW's. Human rights - and military - officials were concerned that many of the detainees were merely people who were sold for bounty or vengeance by people hungry for US greenbacks (your tax dollars at work, btw, in one of the dumbest moves ever undertaken by the US government) And you have to remember that no one is going free - they are merely going to be able to stand trial in the court system, which is the same way we bought the perpetrators of the first WTC attack to justice.

There are a lot of people in this country, on all sides of the political spectrum, that care passionately about the constitution and the rule of law. But they get drowned out by all the screaming, hyperbole, and simple-minded soundbytes on the airwaves. It's our job as citizens to cut through all that and separate the s**t from the shinola (as my mother would say)

But it's much easier to just sit back and whine about the situation, and play the victim.
 
If you are referring to me...

...about being a victim, you are sadly mistaken, dalangdon. You have no idea about my degree of political activism.

Now, if you're not referring to me, sorry, because this is going to be a little sharp.

Firstly, if you'd bother to read my posts, you'd know that I make assertions after a reasonable amount of research and thought.

Secondly, regarding climate change, I have no doubt that it is happening, at least to some degree. But hysteria and restriction of industry doesn't solve the problem - it is research into cleaner forms of energy that will stop it. I have been a proponent of alternative energy since the seventies, just for your education - not like it is any business of yours.

Thirdly, if you'd read my posts you'd find out that I am an ardent supporter of the rights for the people imprisioned at Gitmo.

I suggest, sir, that you engage your eyes and your analytical powers before flaming others.

Nate
 
And I, in turn, would suggest that not everything is about you, Nate.

And if you think what I posted was "flaming", you must not get out much ;-) I stated an opinion about the American population, and their tendency towards whining and victimization as a substitute for political engagement. If you took that as a personal insult, I am truly sorry. It was not intended that way.

But let me just point out that some regulation of industry is needed to preserve a semblance of a free market. And most innovation is done as a government/corporate partnership, through either the university system or the military.
 
But of course...

...everything is about me :) Seriously, I will lighten up a bit.

I do certainly agree with you about the US population and its tendency toward whining and victimization. It's very wierd to me.

I think that regulation of industry to preserve a free market is a good thing. What we have seen in recent years, as part of the idea of 'deregulation' is really PRIVATE regulation of the market, not public. That, in my opinion, is no better than stifling public regulations -- again, part of that 'execution by electricity or hanging.'

And I certainly do agree that a lot of innovation is done as a government/corporate partnership. Consider, though, that if government didn't want to be in it it can still foster it by creation tax policy and other things that encourage innovative investment.

Nate
 
My paws and Whiskers, Nate!

Don't suggest the government create more taxes!
This will be the one thread they actually read!
AAARRGGHHH!

:-)))

Actually, I think the partnerships between industry and universities in the US and the government subsidy of private industry here in Europe have both proven moderately effective in creating solutions to problems using known technologies.

We still are not doing a very good job of discovering and exploiting wildly new and previously unheard of technologies...on either continent. That, I believe, is our biggest challenge - to invest money, knowing that most of it won't pay out directly, or perhaps at all.
 
Sorry I meant...

I meant the creation OF tax policy to encourage things.

That usually means "You will get a tax break if you do this"

It is a big problem for both the EU and US/Canada. We are developed societies who have a tremendous reason to keep things JUSt as they are. This allows developing nations to leapfrog developed nations and do what is best and most efficient, not just what has already been done before.

I'm NOT saying that developing nations shouldn't develop - just that we, fat, dumb, lazy US, Can, EU, should be better at what we do - not necessarily do more, but do better than we do.

Nate
 
I would not hold my breath

Inertia is not only a concept applicable to Newtonian physics.

You're very right, Nate, about the problem of "developed" societies adapting. Look at how many of us continue to insist that "alternative" energy is too inefficient, not yet ready for real world application...
And yet Spain is on the verge of becoming a net energy exporter - because of their willingness to design complex systems to balance loading between wind power (Spain makes Wyoming look wind-free in many places), nuclear energy in France and hydro-electric energy in Austria.
Norway is having to hire engineers off of American campuses with their diplomas still wet...the Netherlands is back-ordered for years on some wave powered systems...and the United States now has solar energy collectors in production which amortize themselves and actually make a profit within their expected component lifetime-at today's prices for electricity and without government subsidies.

But to listen to many, none of this is true.

We have a golden opportunity here: The US and Europe still have an enormous production capacity. We still have the technical knowledge and skilled workers to completely achieve independence from the jerks in the Middle East; from the dictators like Chavez in South America...

If Obabma and a congress freed of the oilman mentality of shrub's government can do that, I am optimistic.

Be nice to be ahead of the curve instead of behind it for a change...
 
Great story!

I love the comments section as well - most are happy wishes of congratulations but then.... The bible bangers have to jump in with their own ignorance, waving a book of ancient desert prejudices. But gawd says... YAWN. I guess they've had such good luck so far taking away a woman's reproductive rights, we may not have much to worry about.

I wonder if these guys will bring the fight back to Minnesota now and try to prove the law unconstitutional. All the best of luck to them and the other happy couples!
 
What is most interesting and telling is if you look at the comments made by the "bible bangers" they are not getting clicked on as "liked" like the nice comments from people wishing them well. That's a good sign. Here in Minnesota the fundies were never able to get a constitutional amendment thorough our Democratic State House and Senate and onto the voters, so all we have is a sign onto DOMA from back in 1996. The law could be easily challenged here, time will tell. It might even happen down in Iowa first of all places.

Out of the blue Neal asked me a few weeks ago if I had seen or heard from Tom or Kelly recently. I said no, not for a long time. At least now we know what they've been up to lol.
 
Pictures!

The link to pictures from other marriages within that same article are fabulous! I love all of the cameras everywhere!

Great story, Robert!

~F
 
First of all...

I AM a ''Bible Banger.'' I am a PROUD CHRISTIAN and know that when I have lived my life as best as I can, that I WILL reap a heavenly reward. I KNOW that I am a sinner. ARE YOU NOT??? Will you all PLEASE stop bashing CHRISTIANS?!!! It's VERY offensive. What are you that makes YOU so perfect??? Please tell us all!!! Mark Lightedcontrols
 
Whoops Mark, please accept my appology, I didn't mean to offend you with the term "bible banger". It certainly wasn't directed at you or anyone else here.

I KNOW that I am a sinner. ARE YOU NOT???
I'm sorry to hear that you are a sinner Mark, I on the other hand am NOT A SINNER. Because in my world there is NO SUCH THING, its all complete nonsense. I'm sorry to say, but a witch like me who could zap myself to Paris for lunch if I wanted... would never believe that religious nonsense

Will you all PLEASE stop bashing CHRISTIANS?!!!
That is very difficult to do considering the way we've been bashed by some of them. So, question? Is saying anything that makes it sound like I don't share the same beliefs as them (christians) considered "christian" bashing?

What are you that makes YOU so perfect???
Perfect? I'm far from perfect, not even close.
 
Going to the Chapel

Gary and I have an appointment next week to get our license. We plan to tie the knot this summer on the day we met...nine years ago.
 
Robert...

I did not mean just you. This entire post has been a thread of bashing. Say the same thing that you all have said here, about Jews and see what happens! I am a white American (part Cherokee Indian) gay Christian. I have always felt that it was the Church's decision about gay marriage, not the governments. Personally, I don't think that ANYONE should get more benefits JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE MARRIED. GEESH. Mark
 
No Mark, we're not bashing you or any other Christian that lives the principles of their faith. What we're pushing back against is the over-publicized filth and hatred coming from those that would seek to limit our rights, take away our freedoms and convince otherwise kind and tolerant people that we should be stoned to death, that HIV/AIDS is a curse from their god brought down to kill us all (read the comments in that article) that we may suffer an unspeakable horrific death and live in the fires of hell for all eternity. Do we accept this as just another opinion and not speak out? Do we allow these monsters to infect children with their lies and prejudices or do we push back and point out that there are those who choose to live their lives with a different philosophy they they do? Do we allow them to discriminate against us and our freedoms?

I grew up in a family of faith, served on a church board, president of the youth group, etc. but when that church told me that their official policy and interpretation of scripture is "love the sinner but hate the sin" I left the hate behind and never looked back. No religion of love and peace would ever teach such nonsense. I was taught that all that I have, am and will be was given to me of, by and for the glory of god. If that was true, why did the rhetoric change when my choice of partner didn't fit their model? Feh.
 
Mark -

Folks here bash chrisitans and chrisitanity because christians and christianity continue to bash these same folks. Is that the message Christ put forward? I don't think so. Yes, I'm Christian, too. But I don't pretend for a second that what these people do is right, or is okay. I find it completely reprehensible and disgusting, and am embarassed to be affiliated with it. And the christian churches continue to stick their nose into the political and legislative processes and spew forth the filth that we are less than deserving of equal rights, even though they have no business in it. Marriage is a state sanctioned institution, it has nothing to do with religion.


Ghandi said it best when he said, "I like the idea of your Christ, but I can't say the same about your christians".
 
Mark, please read this through, thanks.

I probably feel more anger towards fundamentalist Christians than anyone else here.
Since you certainly have read of all the problems they have caused for my parents and for me - up to and including threats to have me kicked out of the US, leaving my parents without the help they need - I often give voice to my feelings.

After many people - including, I do believe you - pointed out to me that not all Christians are monsters - I laid off the comments about "not leaving the lions out overnight" and other such statements. To show that there is a difference, I have begun to use the word "christianist" to reflect those people who only dish out hatred, cherry-pick the bible and rejoice in hurting other people. Not Christians, christianists. As in "islamic extremists". Same thing.

Up until the early 1980's, it really looked as though the Christian church in the US and the gay movement were going to be able to reach, if not harmony, at least consensus. Sadly, Aids and the Reagan revolution, the "silent majority" and a very manipulative form of fundamentalism all coalesced to form a perfect storm of hatred and persecution against us. You know this, you are a tad bit older than I am.

Many of us, furious with the way we were treated, enraged by the way our sick friends (and for many; lovers, life partners) were dying and rejected completely left the church and the Christian religion behind.

Under Clinton, the conflict didn't get resolved - it just mutated into an even worse form. Matthew Shepard's death, however foolish he might have been, was the moment which made a lot of us realize that they would stop at nothing to torture and kill us.

The last seven years, soon to be over, have been characterized by an unprecedented attack on our civil liberties...not since black people were regarded as being 3/5 human had efforts been made to reduce human beings to sub-human status, to strip them of their civil rights. Not in the US, at any rate. Nazi Germany did a very efficient job of it, killing millions of Jews, Roma, Gays, devout Christians, mentally and physically handicapped children...

So where do we go from here? The culture wars may finally be drawing to a close, at least for the moment. But for many of your and my generation, it is, I think like it was for those in my mother's family who ended up on the two different sides of the War of Northern Aggression, as my one great-great-great aunt put it - she saw her family fight on opposite sides and her experiences in Virginia are still passed down in the family when we can't get along. The war was over, they had to chose: Can we still be family or must we go our separate ways?

And that's the problem we face here. You, sir, have not attacked me; you have certainly not participated in the hateful, spiteful battle we have fought here in proxy for some time. I wish you no harm. Much more to the point, I don't want you to leave. You have just as much right to be here as any of us.

Tell you what, as a symbol of my good wishes, regardless of your answer, I will withdraw from all postings here in Super (I never discuss anything but ancient machinery in Imperial and old machinery in Deluxe) for the next month. Write me per email if you like, I'll be happy to answer...but please, don't go away.
 
"That is very difficult to do considering the way we've been bashed by some of them."

Oh? Really? You've been bashed by Christians, here, on your own website?

Then why would you turn around and disrespect others for their own beliefs?

*****************

"Since you certainly have read of all the problems they have caused for my parents and for me - up to and including threats to have me kicked out of the US, leaving my parents without the help they need - I often give voice to my feelings."

Yes, you do, Keven. But you also antagonize all religious people and even atheists who understand tolerance with your broad brush, and using "St. Andrew Of The Blistering Heartache"'s transparent little "Christianist" moniker, over and over again, is just making the situation worse.

I'm also disgusted by your constant negative comparisons of this country to Germany. I'm familiar with both societies, they are distinct from one another-as they should be-and there is not one of the unpleasant challenges you describe as having had here that you could not have experienced in any other nation.

Many of us experienced horrible times during the epidemic, losing loved ones and friends, sometimes several times over, so this is not a unique experience here. But you have to LET GO, or else, how can you move forward? Believe me.

These experiences may be a part of who we are, but we should not let them define us. Everybody is going to have different opinions on that matter, but to take yours and denounce everyone else's, and repeating "Christianists, christianists" over and over again, like the Grays, or black helicopters, is approaching a level of insanity, and you have to take a step back and ask yourself, could there actually be sizable numbers of NON-"christianist" Americans who oppose marriage equality for their own reasons, and I'm just targeting a convenient scapegoat?

I think you are a nice guy, keven, but you make liking you very difficult sometimes, when you are asked to stop being abusive and you just can't seem to stop yourself.
 
"Say the same thing that you all have said here, about Jews and see what happens!"

Thank you, Mark.

Insert any other name of any fashionably protected group as well, and you'd see a similar firestorm.
 
Joyous occasion...

OMG Rich that is the best news I've heard all day. We need to have an AW celebration (in a new thread) and I hope you guys are having pictures done because we want to see them.

Yay x 100
 

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