Positive news about gay marriage

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And I, in turn, would suggest that not everything is about you, Nate.

And if you think what I posted was "flaming", you must not get out much ;-) I stated an opinion about the American population, and their tendency towards whining and victimization as a substitute for political engagement. If you took that as a personal insult, I am truly sorry. It was not intended that way.

But let me just point out that some regulation of industry is needed to preserve a semblance of a free market. And most innovation is done as a government/corporate partnership, through either the university system or the military.
 
But of course...

...everything is about me :) Seriously, I will lighten up a bit.

I do certainly agree with you about the US population and its tendency toward whining and victimization. It's very wierd to me.

I think that regulation of industry to preserve a free market is a good thing. What we have seen in recent years, as part of the idea of 'deregulation' is really PRIVATE regulation of the market, not public. That, in my opinion, is no better than stifling public regulations -- again, part of that 'execution by electricity or hanging.'

And I certainly do agree that a lot of innovation is done as a government/corporate partnership. Consider, though, that if government didn't want to be in it it can still foster it by creation tax policy and other things that encourage innovative investment.

Nate
 
My paws and Whiskers, Nate!

Don't suggest the government create more taxes!
This will be the one thread they actually read!
AAARRGGHHH!

:-)))

Actually, I think the partnerships between industry and universities in the US and the government subsidy of private industry here in Europe have both proven moderately effective in creating solutions to problems using known technologies.

We still are not doing a very good job of discovering and exploiting wildly new and previously unheard of technologies...on either continent. That, I believe, is our biggest challenge - to invest money, knowing that most of it won't pay out directly, or perhaps at all.
 
Sorry I meant...

I meant the creation OF tax policy to encourage things.

That usually means "You will get a tax break if you do this"

It is a big problem for both the EU and US/Canada. We are developed societies who have a tremendous reason to keep things JUSt as they are. This allows developing nations to leapfrog developed nations and do what is best and most efficient, not just what has already been done before.

I'm NOT saying that developing nations shouldn't develop - just that we, fat, dumb, lazy US, Can, EU, should be better at what we do - not necessarily do more, but do better than we do.

Nate
 
I would not hold my breath

Inertia is not only a concept applicable to Newtonian physics.

You're very right, Nate, about the problem of "developed" societies adapting. Look at how many of us continue to insist that "alternative" energy is too inefficient, not yet ready for real world application...
And yet Spain is on the verge of becoming a net energy exporter - because of their willingness to design complex systems to balance loading between wind power (Spain makes Wyoming look wind-free in many places), nuclear energy in France and hydro-electric energy in Austria.
Norway is having to hire engineers off of American campuses with their diplomas still wet...the Netherlands is back-ordered for years on some wave powered systems...and the United States now has solar energy collectors in production which amortize themselves and actually make a profit within their expected component lifetime-at today's prices for electricity and without government subsidies.

But to listen to many, none of this is true.

We have a golden opportunity here: The US and Europe still have an enormous production capacity. We still have the technical knowledge and skilled workers to completely achieve independence from the jerks in the Middle East; from the dictators like Chavez in South America...

If Obabma and a congress freed of the oilman mentality of shrub's government can do that, I am optimistic.

Be nice to be ahead of the curve instead of behind it for a change...
 
Here comes the Grooms..

Since the title of this thread is "Some Positive News About Gay Marriage" I thought I would share some.

This story and picture were printed big and proud on the front page of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune this morning. Neal and I both know Tom and Kelly, they used to both work out at my gym. A big congrats to the newlyweds...

 
Great story!

I love the comments section as well - most are happy wishes of congratulations but then.... The bible bangers have to jump in with their own ignorance, waving a book of ancient desert prejudices. But gawd says... YAWN. I guess they've had such good luck so far taking away a woman's reproductive rights, we may not have much to worry about.

I wonder if these guys will bring the fight back to Minnesota now and try to prove the law unconstitutional. All the best of luck to them and the other happy couples!
 
What is most interesting and telling is if you look at the comments made by the "bible bangers" they are not getting clicked on as "liked" like the nice comments from people wishing them well. That's a good sign. Here in Minnesota the fundies were never able to get a constitutional amendment thorough our Democratic State House and Senate and onto the voters, so all we have is a sign onto DOMA from back in 1996. The law could be easily challenged here, time will tell. It might even happen down in Iowa first of all places.

Out of the blue Neal asked me a few weeks ago if I had seen or heard from Tom or Kelly recently. I said no, not for a long time. At least now we know what they've been up to lol.
 
Pictures!

The link to pictures from other marriages within that same article are fabulous! I love all of the cameras everywhere!

Great story, Robert!

~F
 
First of all...

I AM a ''Bible Banger.'' I am a PROUD CHRISTIAN and know that when I have lived my life as best as I can, that I WILL reap a heavenly reward. I KNOW that I am a sinner. ARE YOU NOT??? Will you all PLEASE stop bashing CHRISTIANS?!!! It's VERY offensive. What are you that makes YOU so perfect??? Please tell us all!!! Mark Lightedcontrols
 
Whoops Mark, please accept my appology, I didn't mean to offend you with the term "bible banger". It certainly wasn't directed at you or anyone else here.

I KNOW that I am a sinner. ARE YOU NOT???
I'm sorry to hear that you are a sinner Mark, I on the other hand am NOT A SINNER. Because in my world there is NO SUCH THING, its all complete nonsense. I'm sorry to say, but a witch like me who could zap myself to Paris for lunch if I wanted... would never believe that religious nonsense

Will you all PLEASE stop bashing CHRISTIANS?!!!
That is very difficult to do considering the way we've been bashed by some of them. So, question? Is saying anything that makes it sound like I don't share the same beliefs as them (christians) considered "christian" bashing?

What are you that makes YOU so perfect???
Perfect? I'm far from perfect, not even close.
 
Going to the Chapel

Gary and I have an appointment next week to get our license. We plan to tie the knot this summer on the day we met...nine years ago.
 
Robert...

I did not mean just you. This entire post has been a thread of bashing. Say the same thing that you all have said here, about Jews and see what happens! I am a white American (part Cherokee Indian) gay Christian. I have always felt that it was the Church's decision about gay marriage, not the governments. Personally, I don't think that ANYONE should get more benefits JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE MARRIED. GEESH. Mark
 
No Mark, we're not bashing you or any other Christian that lives the principles of their faith. What we're pushing back against is the over-publicized filth and hatred coming from those that would seek to limit our rights, take away our freedoms and convince otherwise kind and tolerant people that we should be stoned to death, that HIV/AIDS is a curse from their god brought down to kill us all (read the comments in that article) that we may suffer an unspeakable horrific death and live in the fires of hell for all eternity. Do we accept this as just another opinion and not speak out? Do we allow these monsters to infect children with their lies and prejudices or do we push back and point out that there are those who choose to live their lives with a different philosophy they they do? Do we allow them to discriminate against us and our freedoms?

I grew up in a family of faith, served on a church board, president of the youth group, etc. but when that church told me that their official policy and interpretation of scripture is "love the sinner but hate the sin" I left the hate behind and never looked back. No religion of love and peace would ever teach such nonsense. I was taught that all that I have, am and will be was given to me of, by and for the glory of god. If that was true, why did the rhetoric change when my choice of partner didn't fit their model? Feh.
 
Mark -

Folks here bash chrisitans and chrisitanity because christians and christianity continue to bash these same folks. Is that the message Christ put forward? I don't think so. Yes, I'm Christian, too. But I don't pretend for a second that what these people do is right, or is okay. I find it completely reprehensible and disgusting, and am embarassed to be affiliated with it. And the christian churches continue to stick their nose into the political and legislative processes and spew forth the filth that we are less than deserving of equal rights, even though they have no business in it. Marriage is a state sanctioned institution, it has nothing to do with religion.


Ghandi said it best when he said, "I like the idea of your Christ, but I can't say the same about your christians".
 
Mark, please read this through, thanks.

I probably feel more anger towards fundamentalist Christians than anyone else here.
Since you certainly have read of all the problems they have caused for my parents and for me - up to and including threats to have me kicked out of the US, leaving my parents without the help they need - I often give voice to my feelings.

After many people - including, I do believe you - pointed out to me that not all Christians are monsters - I laid off the comments about "not leaving the lions out overnight" and other such statements. To show that there is a difference, I have begun to use the word "christianist" to reflect those people who only dish out hatred, cherry-pick the bible and rejoice in hurting other people. Not Christians, christianists. As in "islamic extremists". Same thing.

Up until the early 1980's, it really looked as though the Christian church in the US and the gay movement were going to be able to reach, if not harmony, at least consensus. Sadly, Aids and the Reagan revolution, the "silent majority" and a very manipulative form of fundamentalism all coalesced to form a perfect storm of hatred and persecution against us. You know this, you are a tad bit older than I am.

Many of us, furious with the way we were treated, enraged by the way our sick friends (and for many; lovers, life partners) were dying and rejected completely left the church and the Christian religion behind.

Under Clinton, the conflict didn't get resolved - it just mutated into an even worse form. Matthew Shepard's death, however foolish he might have been, was the moment which made a lot of us realize that they would stop at nothing to torture and kill us.

The last seven years, soon to be over, have been characterized by an unprecedented attack on our civil liberties...not since black people were regarded as being 3/5 human had efforts been made to reduce human beings to sub-human status, to strip them of their civil rights. Not in the US, at any rate. Nazi Germany did a very efficient job of it, killing millions of Jews, Roma, Gays, devout Christians, mentally and physically handicapped children...

So where do we go from here? The culture wars may finally be drawing to a close, at least for the moment. But for many of your and my generation, it is, I think like it was for those in my mother's family who ended up on the two different sides of the War of Northern Aggression, as my one great-great-great aunt put it - she saw her family fight on opposite sides and her experiences in Virginia are still passed down in the family when we can't get along. The war was over, they had to chose: Can we still be family or must we go our separate ways?

And that's the problem we face here. You, sir, have not attacked me; you have certainly not participated in the hateful, spiteful battle we have fought here in proxy for some time. I wish you no harm. Much more to the point, I don't want you to leave. You have just as much right to be here as any of us.

Tell you what, as a symbol of my good wishes, regardless of your answer, I will withdraw from all postings here in Super (I never discuss anything but ancient machinery in Imperial and old machinery in Deluxe) for the next month. Write me per email if you like, I'll be happy to answer...but please, don't go away.
 
"That is very difficult to do considering the way we've been bashed by some of them."

Oh? Really? You've been bashed by Christians, here, on your own website?

Then why would you turn around and disrespect others for their own beliefs?

*****************

"Since you certainly have read of all the problems they have caused for my parents and for me - up to and including threats to have me kicked out of the US, leaving my parents without the help they need - I often give voice to my feelings."

Yes, you do, Keven. But you also antagonize all religious people and even atheists who understand tolerance with your broad brush, and using "St. Andrew Of The Blistering Heartache"'s transparent little "Christianist" moniker, over and over again, is just making the situation worse.

I'm also disgusted by your constant negative comparisons of this country to Germany. I'm familiar with both societies, they are distinct from one another-as they should be-and there is not one of the unpleasant challenges you describe as having had here that you could not have experienced in any other nation.

Many of us experienced horrible times during the epidemic, losing loved ones and friends, sometimes several times over, so this is not a unique experience here. But you have to LET GO, or else, how can you move forward? Believe me.

These experiences may be a part of who we are, but we should not let them define us. Everybody is going to have different opinions on that matter, but to take yours and denounce everyone else's, and repeating "Christianists, christianists" over and over again, like the Grays, or black helicopters, is approaching a level of insanity, and you have to take a step back and ask yourself, could there actually be sizable numbers of NON-"christianist" Americans who oppose marriage equality for their own reasons, and I'm just targeting a convenient scapegoat?

I think you are a nice guy, keven, but you make liking you very difficult sometimes, when you are asked to stop being abusive and you just can't seem to stop yourself.
 
"Say the same thing that you all have said here, about Jews and see what happens!"

Thank you, Mark.

Insert any other name of any fashionably protected group as well, and you'd see a similar firestorm.
 

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