...there's no need for it! 
Alex
Alex
pre rinsing dishes
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exploder3211
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Great Resuts... I hardly rinse anything off and never have any issues with our TT Kenpool... It works wonders and every one likes it alot
We have a Bosch that is apparently marketed exclusively through Lowes. It is fantastic: I NEVER rinse, and even ugly baked-on gunk comes out sparkling.
If I ever became famous, and the Bosch people asked me to do a commercial, not only would I do it - I'd do it for free! ;-)
If I ever became famous, and the Bosch people asked me to do a commercial, not only would I do it - I'd do it for free! ;-)
That's a Siemens dishwasher (same as Bosch really)
That dishwasher above is a Siemens. Siemens and Bosch have a joint venture company that makes domestic appliances under both companies brand names : BSH - Bosch & Siemens Hausgeräte GmbH.
The models are generally very similar / identical although the Siemens washing machines on sale in Ireland anyway seem to be aimed at a higher price point than Bosch and tend to be top of the line only. (That may not be the case in Germany)
I've a Bosch dishwasher, but have had others over the years too e.g. Zanussi and I've never had to pre-rinse anything. Any European dishwashers that I'm familiar with have fairly similar filtration systems. Basically you have a large filter unit in the bottom of the machine which contains a a series of progressively finer filters. When the machine's washing it sucks water through from the side of the filter system which forces it through all of the filter layers (including fine mesh). When the machine's draining the water flows straight down through the centre of the filter, only filtered by a coarse grid. The drain pump's designed to pass any normal sized food particles through without clogging and the coarse filter will catch anything too big for the pump.
The result is that the drain pump basically cleans the finer elements while it's emptying the machine as well as getting rid of the majority of food particles directly down the drain.
Most machines here run a cycle in the following steps:
It goes something like this:
1) Short prewash (cold, no detergent) to remove loose food particles. (These are mostly flushed down the drain) (If you select an intensive option, it will heat the prewash water in some machines e.g. Bosch)
2) Main wash (typically 65C (normal) or 75C (intensive) ) (149F or 167F) [Eco washes may be cooler e.g. 55C) (on draining, any further gunk in the filter is usually cleared out)
3) Cold rinse (quite short)
4) Cold rinse (quite short)
5) Hot rinse (65 or 75C). (With rinse aid to prevent streaking)
6) Pause while the residual heat of the dishes dries them.
At the end of the wash you may find very large chunks of food are still present in the filter, but in general it will be pretty clean. It's still advisable to clear it out once in a while though.
European machines (although I'm not sure about European machines built for the US market) also have lime scale filters built in as standard. The water intake goes through an ion exchange filter which softens the water, removing calcium and magnesium ions as the machine fills.
The filter's reset and regenerated by flushing it with a concentrated salt sollution once in a while. The machine does this automatically, you just need to keep it supplied with dishwasher salt (large crystals of non-iodised salt) which you fill into resevoir in the machine typically once every few months (depends on your water hardness). Most machines will let you know when they need more salt, by displaying a message or an indicator light comes on.
It improves results drastically though as *ALL* water is softened in the machine. i.e. all the rinses, including the final hot rinse use softened water.
This is a major advantage over just relying on the detergent to soften the water, as it's only softened during the wash cycle.
Hence, the 3-in-one with "Salt Function" products on the market here are never as good for your machine or your dishes as using the machine's internal filters and you can expect your dishwasher's heater to become caked in limescale, particularly if you're in a hardwater area as it will deposit during the hot rinse cycle.
I'm not 100% sure, but I suspect there may be slight differences in the formulations of US and European dishwasher detergents too. I suspect we might, like clothes detergents, use a lot more enzyme-based cleaning and less bleach. Older dishwasher detergents here used to be pretty heavily chlorine bleached based. The modern ones are far more effective and don't fade patterns / colours.
That dishwasher above is a Siemens. Siemens and Bosch have a joint venture company that makes domestic appliances under both companies brand names : BSH - Bosch & Siemens Hausgeräte GmbH.
The models are generally very similar / identical although the Siemens washing machines on sale in Ireland anyway seem to be aimed at a higher price point than Bosch and tend to be top of the line only. (That may not be the case in Germany)
I've a Bosch dishwasher, but have had others over the years too e.g. Zanussi and I've never had to pre-rinse anything. Any European dishwashers that I'm familiar with have fairly similar filtration systems. Basically you have a large filter unit in the bottom of the machine which contains a a series of progressively finer filters. When the machine's washing it sucks water through from the side of the filter system which forces it through all of the filter layers (including fine mesh). When the machine's draining the water flows straight down through the centre of the filter, only filtered by a coarse grid. The drain pump's designed to pass any normal sized food particles through without clogging and the coarse filter will catch anything too big for the pump.
The result is that the drain pump basically cleans the finer elements while it's emptying the machine as well as getting rid of the majority of food particles directly down the drain.
Most machines here run a cycle in the following steps:
It goes something like this:
1) Short prewash (cold, no detergent) to remove loose food particles. (These are mostly flushed down the drain) (If you select an intensive option, it will heat the prewash water in some machines e.g. Bosch)
2) Main wash (typically 65C (normal) or 75C (intensive) ) (149F or 167F) [Eco washes may be cooler e.g. 55C) (on draining, any further gunk in the filter is usually cleared out)
3) Cold rinse (quite short)
4) Cold rinse (quite short)
5) Hot rinse (65 or 75C). (With rinse aid to prevent streaking)
6) Pause while the residual heat of the dishes dries them.
At the end of the wash you may find very large chunks of food are still present in the filter, but in general it will be pretty clean. It's still advisable to clear it out once in a while though.
European machines (although I'm not sure about European machines built for the US market) also have lime scale filters built in as standard. The water intake goes through an ion exchange filter which softens the water, removing calcium and magnesium ions as the machine fills.
The filter's reset and regenerated by flushing it with a concentrated salt sollution once in a while. The machine does this automatically, you just need to keep it supplied with dishwasher salt (large crystals of non-iodised salt) which you fill into resevoir in the machine typically once every few months (depends on your water hardness). Most machines will let you know when they need more salt, by displaying a message or an indicator light comes on.
It improves results drastically though as *ALL* water is softened in the machine. i.e. all the rinses, including the final hot rinse use softened water.
This is a major advantage over just relying on the detergent to soften the water, as it's only softened during the wash cycle.
Hence, the 3-in-one with "Salt Function" products on the market here are never as good for your machine or your dishes as using the machine's internal filters and you can expect your dishwasher's heater to become caked in limescale, particularly if you're in a hardwater area as it will deposit during the hot rinse cycle.
I'm not 100% sure, but I suspect there may be slight differences in the formulations of US and European dishwasher detergents too. I suspect we might, like clothes detergents, use a lot more enzyme-based cleaning and less bleach. Older dishwasher detergents here used to be pretty heavily chlorine bleached based. The modern ones are far more effective and don't fade patterns / colours.
A few facts on the BSH group.
The BSH (Bosch & Siemens Hausegerate group is pretty enormous:
Sales 2005 : €7.34 Billion Euro. (US$9.48bn)
http://www.bsh-group.com/index_com.html
The BSH (Bosch & Siemens Hausegerate group is pretty enormous:
Sales 2005 : €7.34 Billion Euro. (US$9.48bn)
http://www.bsh-group.com/index_com.html
launderess
Well-known member
Chlorine has all but been eliminated from top and middle shelf dishwasher detergents, as enzymes have taken over on this side of the pond. Probably can go as far to say even bottom shelf products as well, as many store brand dishwasher detergents such as Kirkland's, America's Choice, and even Walmart's brand rank pretty well in Consumer's Reports testing on dishwasher detergents.
Enzyme detergents clean better, cause less damage to dishware and (thankfully), do not have one's kitchen smelling like a laundromat. Since chlorine bleach deactivates enzymes, the two cannot be used in the same formula.
Chlorine bleach was used to break down protein. Enzymes do this and also work on starches, sugars, oils/greases and a whole host of other organic substances. Detergent makers have a whole range of enzymes to choose from when making dishwasher detergent.
Enzyme detergents clean better, cause less damage to dishware and (thankfully), do not have one's kitchen smelling like a laundromat. Since chlorine bleach deactivates enzymes, the two cannot be used in the same formula.
Chlorine bleach was used to break down protein. Enzymes do this and also work on starches, sugars, oils/greases and a whole host of other organic substances. Detergent makers have a whole range of enzymes to choose from when making dishwasher detergent.
That's the ingredient list in a Sun (Unilever) 5-in-1 dishwasher tablet as sold here:
Pentasodium Triphosphate Builder
Sodium Carbonate Alkalinity Source
Sodium Carbonate Peroxide Oxidising Agent
Aqua Solvent
PPG-2 C12-15 Pareth-6 Surfactant
Sodium Sulfate Bulking Agent
Acrylate/Sulfophenylmethyl Allyl Ether/Methylalkyl Sulfonate Suspending Agent
PEG-80 Binder
Tetraacetyl Ethylene Diamine Bleach Precursor
Sodium Polyacrylate Builder
Polyvinylalcohol Crosspolymer Additive
Tetrasodium Etidronate Sequestrant
Glycerin Solvent
Styrene/MA Copolymer Anti-redeposition Agent
Zinc Sulfate Corrosion Inhibitor
Protease Enzyme
Parfum Fragrance
Sodium Acrylic Acid/MA Copolymer Builder
Sorbitol Additive
Sodium Bentonite Binder
Amylase Enzyme
Benzotriazole Corrosion Inhibitor
Manganese Catalyst Bleach Catalyst
Hexyl Cinnamal Fragrance
CI 47005 Colourant
CI 42051 Colourant
Polymeric Pink Al Colourant
Pentasodium Triphosphate Builder
Sodium Carbonate Alkalinity Source
Sodium Carbonate Peroxide Oxidising Agent
Aqua Solvent
PPG-2 C12-15 Pareth-6 Surfactant
Acrylate/Sulfophenylmethyl Allyl Ether/Methylalkyl Sulfonate Suspending Agent
PEG-80 Binder
Tetraacetyl Ethylene Diamine Bleach Precursor
Sodium Polyacrylate Builder
Sodium Sulfate Bulking Agent
Polyvinylalcohol Crosspolymer Additive
Tetrasodium Etidronate Sequestrant
Glycerin Solvent
Styrene/MA Copolymer Anti-redeposition Agent
Zinc Sulfate Corrosion Inhibitor
Protease Enzyme
Parfum Fragrance
Sodium Acrylic Acid/MA Copolymer Builder
Sorbitol Additive
Sodium Bentonite Binder
Benzotriazole Corrosion Inhibitor
Manganese Catalyst Bleach Catalyst
Hexyl Cinnamal Fragrance
Amylase Enzyme
CI 47005 Colourant
CI 42051 Colourant
Polymeric Pink Al Colourant
Pentasodium Triphosphate Builder
Sodium Carbonate Alkalinity Source
Sodium Carbonate Peroxide Oxidising Agent
Aqua Solvent
PPG-2 C12-15 Pareth-6 Surfactant
Sodium Sulfate Bulking Agent
Acrylate/Sulfophenylmethyl Allyl Ether/Methylalkyl Sulfonate Suspending Agent
PEG-80 Binder
Tetraacetyl Ethylene Diamine Bleach Precursor
Sodium Polyacrylate Builder
Polyvinylalcohol Crosspolymer Additive
Tetrasodium Etidronate Sequestrant
Glycerin Solvent
Styrene/MA Copolymer Anti-redeposition Agent
Zinc Sulfate Corrosion Inhibitor
Protease Enzyme
Parfum Fragrance
Sodium Acrylic Acid/MA Copolymer Builder
Sorbitol Additive
Sodium Bentonite Binder
Amylase Enzyme
Benzotriazole Corrosion Inhibitor
Manganese Catalyst Bleach Catalyst
Hexyl Cinnamal Fragrance
CI 47005 Colourant
CI 42051 Colourant
Polymeric Pink Al Colourant
Pentasodium Triphosphate Builder
Sodium Carbonate Alkalinity Source
Sodium Carbonate Peroxide Oxidising Agent
Aqua Solvent
PPG-2 C12-15 Pareth-6 Surfactant
Acrylate/Sulfophenylmethyl Allyl Ether/Methylalkyl Sulfonate Suspending Agent
PEG-80 Binder
Tetraacetyl Ethylene Diamine Bleach Precursor
Sodium Polyacrylate Builder
Sodium Sulfate Bulking Agent
Polyvinylalcohol Crosspolymer Additive
Tetrasodium Etidronate Sequestrant
Glycerin Solvent
Styrene/MA Copolymer Anti-redeposition Agent
Zinc Sulfate Corrosion Inhibitor
Protease Enzyme
Parfum Fragrance
Sodium Acrylic Acid/MA Copolymer Builder
Sorbitol Additive
Sodium Bentonite Binder
Benzotriazole Corrosion Inhibitor
Manganese Catalyst Bleach Catalyst
Hexyl Cinnamal Fragrance
Amylase Enzyme
CI 47005 Colourant
CI 42051 Colourant
Polymeric Pink Al Colourant
maytagbear
Well-known member
What?
Looks like they forgot the eye of newt and hind leg of frog!
or, alternately...
Where's the basil and thyme?
Lawrence/Maytagbear
Looks like they forgot the eye of newt and hind leg of frog!
or, alternately...
Where's the basil and thyme?
Lawrence/Maytagbear
oxydolfan1
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"Looks like they forgot the eye of newt and hind leg of frog!"
I think this must be their non-bio formula....
(ducks and runs)
I think this must be their non-bio formula....
(ducks and runs)
Yes, I'd say Siemens is a *little* more TOL than Bosch - although one can buy most of their products with either BOSCH or SIEMENS written on it. Only Bosch has the Logixx 9 washer (aka Nexxt) available, though.
BSH can definitely compete with Electrolux and Whirlpool when it comes to the number of different brands they all produce.
The Siemens shown above is one of their Premium models. Retails for around 1200 € / $1500. Although you can get it for 60% off, if you do a little google search.)
BSH can definitely compete with Electrolux and Whirlpool when it comes to the number of different brands they all produce.
The Siemens shown above is one of their Premium models. Retails for around 1200 € / $1500. Although you can get it for 60% off, if you do a little google search.
)
Now Venus, Den Mother, I am proud of you that you are getting better at it. But, ahem, notice the stellar performance out of that Bosch cousin Mr. Siemens. I bet if you used the Power Scrub Plus (the most Intensive) cycle, you'd obtain similar results!!!
And Larence, I will agree with you. In facdt, I own't even consider any dishes unless they are dishwasher rackable withoout hogging space. I've even turned down a set or two over the years.
And Larence, I will agree with you. In facdt, I own't even consider any dishes unless they are dishwasher rackable withoout hogging space. I've even turned down a set or two over the years.
laundromat
Well-known member
I NEVER PRE RINSE ANYTHING!I have a 2004 GE Triton tall tub dishwasher.It has the "Perona"hard food disposer built in and 100%water filtration in the mechanism.I have washed Lasagna coated casseroles,skillets with cooked on egg yolk,melted cheese,dried egg yolk,and grease.I use the Electrosol tablets and Jet Dry liquid.I program the Sani cycle or the extra hot wash and everything comes out sparkling.No food particles anywhere.The KitchenAid model that was here originaly would leave ground up food partcle deposits on my coffee cub and wine glass feet.I highly recomend the TallTubs by GE to anyone replacing their old models.
oxydolfan1
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"I own't even consider any dishes unless they are dishwasher rackable withoout hogging space...."
OMG....I'm getting a new set of Corelle "Pretty Pink" (the square dishes) and never once thought of how they'd stack in the dishwasher....
Good save, appnut. I'll buy one out of open stock first....
OMG....I'm getting a new set of Corelle "Pretty Pink" (the square dishes) and never once thought of how they'd stack in the dishwasher....
Good save, appnut. I'll buy one out of open stock first....
~sudsshane
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- 1,250
I'm learning to like my Bosch~
2 yrs ago we bought a Bosch dishwasher. Top of the line,all the bells and whistles. A few months back,we had to replace the water pump.I thought that was odd given the dishwasher was only 2 years old. We haven't had any problems since. I was using Cascade Gel packs in the Bosch and wasn't all the happy with the cleaning results.Retromom suggested Electrasol and I must say I am pleased as punch with the results.
2 yrs ago we bought a Bosch dishwasher. Top of the line,all the bells and whistles. A few months back,we had to replace the water pump.I thought that was odd given the dishwasher was only 2 years old. We haven't had any problems since. I was using Cascade Gel packs in the Bosch and wasn't all the happy with the cleaning results.Retromom suggested Electrasol and I must say I am pleased as punch with the results.
exploder3211
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I am not a huge Bosch fan my self and *if* i had to replace my Kemo' TT, i would either replace it with a similar one or a GE TT... I might consider a Bosch if the price was right, but i dunno... ALthough i would look on ebay first, as i bought my last one on there for $195
sudsmaster
Well-known member
I have some 1 qt. plastic cylindrical (polypro) storage containers that I use for storing leftovers.
They are great, with tight fitting lids. However the handles up by the lid catch a lot of water when the containers are upside down.
My solution was to get out the cordless drill and drill two 1/8" holes in each handle. The result is no pooling of water there when the dw is done.
I would imagine the same thing could be done for coffeemaker carafes with hollow plastic handles.
They are great, with tight fitting lids. However the handles up by the lid catch a lot of water when the containers are upside down.
My solution was to get out the cordless drill and drill two 1/8" holes in each handle. The result is no pooling of water there when the dw is done.
I would imagine the same thing could be done for coffeemaker carafes with hollow plastic handles.
exploder3211
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I dunno... To think of drillig a hole in such close proximity to such a fragile thing
P&G's "Fairy Active Bursts" seem to be the same/very similar to P&G's Cascade liquid pouches in the US. You've "With the power of Dawn" we have "with the power of Fairy" ... I'd say it's the same product.
Tried them in our Bosch and the dishes came out sticky! although they looked quite clean. They definitely don't seem to play well with that machine anyway. I wonder if they could actually clog / damage the pump i.e. leaving a sticky residue in there? It could build up over time.
I normally use Finish (Reckitt Benckiser - similar to Electrasol, if not the same product) or Unilever's Sun tablets both of which give excellent results everytime.
P&G's quite far behind in terms of Dishwasher products here I think. In general Reckitt-Benckiser and Unilever have had far more successful products on the market for much longer. Fairy is a P&G brand of washing-up liquid (for manual dishwashing) and is *the* defacto standard in the UK/Ireland for washing manually, however, they've really never managed to make the jump to automatic dishwashing for some reason.
I've tried Ecover's dishwasher tablets and they actually do an excellent job. I was pleasantly suprised as I didn't expect them do perform as well.
Tried them in our Bosch and the dishes came out sticky! although they looked quite clean. They definitely don't seem to play well with that machine anyway. I wonder if they could actually clog / damage the pump i.e. leaving a sticky residue in there? It could build up over time.
I normally use Finish (Reckitt Benckiser - similar to Electrasol, if not the same product) or Unilever's Sun tablets both of which give excellent results everytime.
P&G's quite far behind in terms of Dishwasher products here I think. In general Reckitt-Benckiser and Unilever have had far more successful products on the market for much longer. Fairy is a P&G brand of washing-up liquid (for manual dishwashing) and is *the* defacto standard in the UK/Ireland for washing manually, however, they've really never managed to make the jump to automatic dishwashing for some reason.
I've tried Ecover's dishwasher tablets and they actually do an excellent job. I was pleasantly suprised as I didn't expect them do perform as well.
I use Cascade Complete...
in my Bosch dishwasher but if Venus says that Electrasol is the best then that's good enough for me. My next box will be Electrasol!!
in my Bosch dishwasher but if Venus says that Electrasol is the best then that's good enough for me. My next box will be Electrasol!!
oxydolfan1
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I believe you are correct re: Fairy Active vs. Cascade w/Dawn...
In a similar way, Fairy Liquid does correspond to our Dawn, in terms of product placement....if I am not mistaken, it is still the leading dish liquid in the States, followed by Palmolive.
I'm sure the actual products differ chemically, as different countries have differing water conditions and cleaning needs.
Ecover products run the gamut here, but are now easier to find then before. I like their limescale remover (mind you, I have soft water), and their floor soap beats our Murphy's Oil Soap by a mile....again, their products tend to be more expensive here.
In a similar way, Fairy Liquid does correspond to our Dawn, in terms of product placement....if I am not mistaken, it is still the leading dish liquid in the States, followed by Palmolive.
I'm sure the actual products differ chemically, as different countries have differing water conditions and cleaning needs.
Ecover products run the gamut here, but are now easier to find then before. I like their limescale remover (mind you, I have soft water), and their floor soap beats our Murphy's Oil Soap by a mile....again, their products tend to be more expensive here.
Was Dawn always the leading detergent. I would have thought Palmolive was harkening back to the days of Madge "you're soaking it" LOL
It's only in the last few years that I've seen so many Dawn commercials and variants while Palmolive doesn't seem to advertise on tv as much?
I much prefer Electrasol tabs (without the powerball) over Cascade. The only thing I don't like about them is having to remove that wrapper on each tab.
It's only in the last few years that I've seen so many Dawn commercials and variants while Palmolive doesn't seem to advertise on tv as much?
I much prefer Electrasol tabs (without the powerball) over Cascade. The only thing I don't like about them is having to remove that wrapper on each tab.
I don't know that the product differ all that much to be honest. The water conditions in any country vary enormously from region to region. It's all to do with rock type in a particular area.
e.g. in England the water quality varies enormously between the regions.
Ireland's water's mostly very soft, with the exceptions of a few limestone areas where you can be prone to limescale problems.
In the USA, the east coast's lucky in so far as the water's not too hard in most places with a large population but there are vast swathes of the US with pretty hard water.
e.g. in England the water quality varies enormously between the regions.
Ireland's water's mostly very soft, with the exceptions of a few limestone areas where you can be prone to limescale problems.
In the USA, the east coast's lucky in so far as the water's not too hard in most places with a large population but there are vast swathes of the US with pretty hard water.
exploder3211
Well-known member
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I have tasted palmolive on several occasions by accident:
YUCKKKKKKKK
Dawn tastes a little better and Ajax w/grapefruit is so so...
Ok ask if you must
YUCKKKKKKKK
Dawn tastes a little better and Ajax w/grapefruit is so so...
Ok ask if you must
I am using Cascade w/shine shield,...seems to be much better than the last batch of Electrosol i had,...don't know if the last box was old powder or what. Coffee mugs would not come clean.
I used to like Dawn before they watered it down. Palmolive is what i use now.
I used to like Dawn before they watered it down. Palmolive is what i use now.
maytagbear
Well-known member
I've tasted Dawn by
acccident, too, during some "heavy duty" cleanup after a very interesting evening.
Lawence/Maytagbear
acccident, too, during some "heavy duty" cleanup after a very interesting evening.
Lawence/Maytagbear
I don't remember what was the brand (Dawn or Palmolive, probably), but four or five years ago on a nocturnal forage through the kitchen, I grabbed a bottle of dishwashing liquid off the sink and took a swig of it. It was N-A-S-T-Y. Talk about instant awake! And mental anxiety for the rest of the night!
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