Rewiring 240v to 120v Bosch dryer

[davetranter]

Re: Transformer

'Big' - Not necessarily.... 1/4 Cu ft max...

'Heavy' - Certainly!! (for it's size)

My thought on a transformer is that it's a useful piece of kit to have around. Depending on the type bought, it can transform up, down, or 'the same, but isolated'. I'm not sure how common 'Earth Leakage' circuit breakers (ELCBs)are in the U.S., but here they've been mandatory for domestic installations since (I think) the early 1990s. Generally, they are a 'good thing', but can cause problems through 'nuisance tripping', especially where there are lots of modern 'electronica' in use, all with high leakage 'switch mode' power supplies. Another problem is that a single appliance with a 'slight' fault will cut the power to the entire home. A neighbour of mine had a 'pinhole' in the heater of her washing machine, such that it would 'trip' the ELCB upon the first usage in the morning. I lent her my transformer, so that she could continue to use the machine until she could arrange a repair. As a young mother with a large family, having no usable washing machine was not an option... ;-)

The 7500W transformer that I have is a specialist 'ultra-isolation' type with a VERY large iron core. It's weight is such that I can no longer (as I get older) lift it from the floor unassisted, but can still carry it from one table/bench to another. I would guess that it's about 150-180 lbs. Lighter types are available... Check Ebay, etc.

All best

Dave T

P.S. For those interested, mine has four windings - Two Primaries, Two Secondaries, which can be series or parallel connected, hence the up/down/same capability. The oversize core helps to filter electical 'noise' by losing it in 'Iron Loss'. There is full screening between the windings to provide coupling of 30pF equivalent or less. It was designed (I think) to supply an 'isolated' laboratory.

 

[washingpowder]

I'm renting a coop and the mgmt company did not allow me to make any changes. It's probably because there's something strange going on with wiring in this apartment. For example one of the 20A outlets seems to be omitting the breakers.
Anyways, I saw a couple of those cheap, seemingly made in Asia dryers on Amazon and don't think I would go for it. Whirlpool, GE or Kenmore (the latter preferred due to temp selection). However GE is the only one that forces air from back to the door area, instead of left-to-right, which might be be more efficient when drying bulky items. However I'm certainly not willing the price of a new one(around $800 for this?) so hunting Craigslist and eBay, and planning to visit those used appliance stores in LI. Wish I had a car!
@launderess, I was thinking it might happen, but I have an unused window fan. Maybe placing the dryer's exhaust near it so it sucks it all out be some sort of a solution. Otherwise, I'll look around for window venting. Thank you!
@Vacbear, I'm a proud owner of a top-loading GE Spacemaker. Absolutely fabulous machine for all but extra bulky, like comforters, loads. If it had a dual-action agitator it wouldn't be the case. And I love it has hidden options that were not to be found in the manual like selecting up to 5 extra rinses, time of wash or time of spin. Not sure about the RPM's but putting it through two 7-minute spin cycle was comparable to my previous Bosch (1200RPM)
@dave, now I don't think I would be brave enough to use such a transformer considering this building's wiring. After all it's NYC, in most old buildings your lights dim when you plug in your iron.

 

[launderess]

Compact Dryer

On any given day there are several vintage Whirlpool (also badged as Kenmore) compact/portable dryers on CL, eBay, and so forth. These are often going for pennies and most are in decent enough condition. You *may* want to do a tear down and deep cleaning, but not always required. In the end these units will suffice better than anything modern from Asia.

Got my harvest gold WP portable from a CL seller in Queens. Quite honestly renting a minivan and the tolls on the TBB cost more than the dryer (it cost <$20) and hasn't let me down in over ten years of use.

If I were going to try and run anything 220v and go through all the rigmarole you will need, would aim for a vented unit. At least drying times would be faster and you can use it all year long, even in hot summers.

 

[davetranter]

Wiring in Apartment Buildings

@ WashingPowder
Thanks for the 'heads up' on the state of your building's wiring. It doesn't surprise me. There are plenty of buildings on this side of the 'Pond' in a similar condition. The incoming main supply and wiring was installed in the days when lighting (and perhaps the occasional electric iron) was the only anticipated load, perhaps 5A per apartment (10A Statesside). The 'Incomer' from the supply company is probably inadequate, too. These systems struggle on because the building owners refuse to spend the money to upgrade. Eventually the odd wiring fire will necessitate some changes. Your socket which 'omits' (bypasses??) the breakers is probably wired to someone else's breakers in a neighbouring apartment. Check to see if your meter registers the load on that socket.

Sometimes I forget how lucky I am, owning my own (humble little) home.

All best

Dave T

 

[launderess]

IIRC per NYC code when substantial renovations (such as a gut overhaul) and or something to do with electrical work takes place fuse boxes must be replaced with circuit breakers. Plenty of older buildings in NYC still have fuse boxes but when individual apartments are renovated a circuit panel swaps out the fuse box.

This however does not change the amount of power going into units. That is what it was before hence the skimpy panel found in the OP's unit. Yes, it is just as alluded to above; apartments sized for how persons lived in 1940's, 1960's or whatever but not modern times. You might have two each of 15amp and 20amp for a grand total of 70amps for the entire place. Often outlets are few which is why so many New Yorker's have extension cords and or power strips all over the place. An overloaded or malfunctioning power strip was the cause of that high rise fire a few months ago that resulted in one death.

Keep in mind however most apartments in NYC, at least the older rental units usually have only two main draws on electric power; the AC and fridge. There might be a microwave as well. Other than that the rest comes from all the tech/electronic mod cons such as computers, televisions, cell phone chargers etc.....

Even many older pre-war co-op apartments and or even quasi modern rental buildings are very underpowered for today's electrical demands. Hence the situation one has always mentioned about Miele laundry appliances, many persons wanted them but either did not have or weren't allowed to install the required "220v" (yea Combo I know....) power.

In instances where the wiring in units was that out of date even the meter/box in the basement couldn't handle simply adding 208v-240v service. It could require running a new feeder cable from Con Edison in the street to the building. That is very costly and not something every co-op board or landlord would approve.

You begin to see why Miele gave up the ghost and finally had to offer 120v at least washers.

 

[launderess]

Back on topic

OP, if you truly want to use your Bosch dryer find yourself a step-up transformer (minimum 5000w) and give it a go. You'll probably have to change the plug on the Bosch dryer to fit that of the transformer, but that can be sorted out after you have the thing home.

If you are pulling too much power thus overloading your wiring the breaker should trip, and that will give you your answer. Especially if resetting won't happen until it "cools". These transformers have either breaker protection or fuses, if they go then again you are pulling too much power for the unit to handle safely.

Under no circumstances would I "set and forget" your dryer when using a transformer however. Nor would I leave the place with things plugged in/running.

Personally however feel this still won't solve the problem of running a condenser dryer during hot/humid NYC weather times of the year. Cannot imagine the electrical costs for running the AC to keep an apartment cool and dry enough for the condenser dryer to work properly.

 

[Chetlaham]

I don't know why a transformer is even being mentioned, rewiring would still be needed. The primary full load current when the dryer is running would be about 25 amp at 120 volts, which would need a 10 gauge wire circuit. Unless large 240 volt appliances exists its highly unlikely there would be any circuit with over 12 gauge copper. Usually when an appliance runs over 2000 VA such as an A/C or water heater the norm is to have it run on 240, hence why circuits with wire sizes over 12 cu tend to be 240.

 

 

 

Only way to know if a 240 volt dryer is feasible is to pull the cover off the panel and see whats up. If the apartment has electrical less than 40 years old, or has any large appliances such as an electric range there will be 240. Usually the feeders to the tenant panel tend to be 60amp with #4 Aluminum or #6 copper, which will be plenty for the dryer. However if your unit is all gas with air conditioning supplied from a central chiller or a little 120 volt window shaker you could have anything in your panel. Its not uncommon for older apartments to have a 120 volt 30 or 40 amp feed to the tenant panel and the unit having 2 15 amp general outlet an lighting circuits and 1 20 amp for the entire kitchen. In that case 240 volts even with a transformer will not be feasible. The power just isn't there. 25 amps on a 30 amp line only leaves 5 amps, enough for a few lights. Anything else like the fridge starting will just blow protective current device feeding your panel.  

 

 

[launderess]

I don't know why a transformer is even being mentioned

Because living in New York City long as one has have seen what persons who are dead set in using their European appliances here have done.

Being a global destination city persons come here with all sorts of equipment best have left on the other side of the pond, but for various reasons was not, then ways are found to "make it work". When such items turn up on fleaPay or CL that have obviously been used recently the question becomes how was it so?

Is this safe? Probably not but then again persons kept putting coins in fuse boxes for years when the dangers were by then well known.

Cannot verify this but our electrician once told us that older and some newish if not modern building had wiring that was greater than code requirement. This apparently was done to reduce risks of fires or whatever. Again do not know if this is true or false. However it just *might* be that the wiring inside walls are better than they should be for load.

 

[Chetlaham]

My concern is we are not talking about a low wattage import but rather a clothes dryer. A 1500 watt European appliance plugged into a step up transformer will not tax a standard wall outlet. A 1500 watt 230 volt euro appliance draws about 6.5 amps, which would equate to about 12.5 amps at 120 volts, in reality about 12.6 amps factoring in the transformer losses. 13 amp is perfectly find for a standard 15 amp circuit found in homes.

 

 

A 2800 watt dryer on the other hand will force a step up transformer to draw at least 24 amps. This will overwhelm  a standard 15 amp circuit as well as a 20 amp circuit. A 15 amp breaker will keep tripping and a 20 will on occasion assuming both are working ok and no other loads are present. If the circuit is old and already on its last leg this will do it in.

 

The only way to have this be safe would be to use a 30 amp 10 gauge wire circuit at minimum.

 

"if not modern building had wiring that was greater than code requirement. This apparently was done to reduce risks of fires or whatever. Again do not know if this is true or false. However it just *might* be that the wiring inside walls are better than they should be for load"

 

 

Some contractor may choose to add more circuits or have larger feeders to panels then codes require, but I highly doubt they are running 10 guage copper to ever 120 volt circuit. Even if they are code does not allow standard 120 volt cicuits to be protected over 20 amps, and even if they were a standard outlet and plug is only designed to handle 15 or 20 amps max. Not what the transformer will be pulling.      

 

[launderess]

My concern is we are not talking about a low wattage import

So was I. Washing machines, dryers, laundry press....

 

[Chetlaham]

So was I.

Then using a standard 120 volt 15 or 20 amp circuit to run these is not an option. I hope you not advocating that this be done, because it dangerous. A newer electrical system may might put up with this the plug and outlet less so but if this is something on its last legs there is a real risk of fire, less so if new but the risk is still there.

 

This appliance needs  a circuit of adequate capacity regardless of how its run.

 

[combo52]

New York Apartments

Most apartments in NY have 208 volts instead of 240 Volts, we have the same 208 volt situation in about 1/2 of the multifamily housing in Washington D C . And while appliances get hooked up the same way as a single phase 240 volt system, 208 volts lowers the Amp draw and causes a 240 volt heating element to put out 25% less heat.

This is part of the reason so many city dwellers dislike their electric ranges, an average electric range slows down to the point that many gas ranges are as fast as electric ranges operated on 208 volts.

 

[vacbear58]

Compact Dryer

You might find the thread on the link useful to read, as it features restoration of a used Whirlpool 120V dryer so might show what you are in for with a used dryer.

Ultramatic who started the thread has several of these and lives in New York so maybe you could do a deal with him to purchase one. Good hunting

Al

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?48397

 

[arbilab]

Tangentially......

..... there IS such thing as 220V. I live in it. Built 15 years ago to the month. Measured 218V, and standard plugs are 125V. So the building runs on 3-phase and the ratios have been jiggered slightly to put 5V more on each leg, thus 10V more between 120* phases. We throw away an astonishing volume of fluorescent lamps, I have never seen them 'all' operating correctly at any time, even right after the electricians have been here. The performance of the 240V stove is 'disappointing' to put it politely. The coinop dryers take the same 40 min that my 120V LK does, with slightly larger capacity.

Other than load balancing the only thing in the building that actually USES 3-phase is the elevator pump.

So yes, you CAN have 220V running your 240V appliances. And you won't like it.

 

[tolivac]

At my workplace we "live" with higher than usual line voltage here,too.The voltage we are fed with is nominal 4160V it reads 4330V on the newly installed and calibrated line voltmeters in the MV switchgear here.The 4160 is converted to 3 other LV voltages here-208/120V for gen building loads,and 230 3Ph for the Continental Electronics transmitter 230V feeds for the blowers,pumps,and LV supplies.another pair Main,Aux 208/120V feeders go for the control room feeds.Our LV read high like Arbilabs do.Think his building is fed with "nominal" 208/120V voltage-but his power company is running the voltage high as ours is doing.Sometimes it causes one of our transmitters to trip out from overvolage and stays off until the line voltage goes back down.The devices that run from 208/120V are fine here.The 230V 3Ph supply reads 240V.All of these are within the usual 10Percent high or low powerline voltage tolerence.So we have to live with it.

 

[Chetlaham]

High line voltage

Elevated line voltage tends to be the norm for those who live close to the supply substation. Power companies generally run outgoing power lines at a slightly higher voltage to compensate for voltage drop. Generally the goal is to have those at the beginning of the line above average with most of those in the middle at 120 and those toward the end a tad lower. My house is close to the substation that feeds my town, thus I tend to measure about 123 124 volts on average. When I lived out on the far side my old house would get about 117 in the winter 114 during the summer. So far no ill effects, other than a few high hat flood lights burning out a tad quicker, nothing of worry or noticeable. The good part though about being close to a substation is power goes out less frequently, and when it does after a major storm your one of the first to get it back.  

 

 

 

Just for the sake of the convo Eastern Europe had a normal operating voltage of 220/380 while the UK had the norm of 240/415. A few years ago the European union set a harmonized standard of 230/400 volts 50Hz. Truth is other than new installs not much has changed, but appliances sold in the EU are required to have about a +10% -6% tolerance (if memory serves right) Although Ive had a family member say he has gotten readings as high as 247 in the UK few years back.

 

 

http://www.twothirtyvolts.org.uk/pdfs/site-info/Explanation_230Volts.pdf

 

My 2 cents.  

 

 

[arbilab]

We're only a block from the substation, might have something to do with it. Sorry, didn't mean to derail, we were talking about dryers.

 

[Chetlaham]

Don't sweat it, its interesting stuff.

 

[tolivac]

At he workplace-we hve our own substation that steps 115Kv 3Ph to 4160.Several other major customers are on the same 115Kv line as us-DuPont,Weyerhauser,and some other companies.These would be major customers-not homes.

 

[davetranter]

A bit more from the rainy side of the Pond

Re: Reply#38
I wasn't aware that wiring regulations were so restrictive Statesside. Here our (ring-main) disribution is fused at 30/32 Amps, so each ring circuit is good for 7kW. It is quite possible to fit a 32A BS4343/CEE17 socket to run heavy loads. This is not 'normal' domestic practice, but many of us have them.

Re: Reply#45
The 'Euro-harmonisation' (Read: 'Diktat') for supply voltages seems to have been greeted with a healthy degree of cynicism by my local supply company. Their attitude is that their existing distribution voltages (at 240/415) are 'within acceptable tolerance', so they have changed nothing, much to the relief of their customers.

All best

Dave T