Spider Corrosion, And Foul Odors, In Front Load Washers

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John is our expert on repair around here and I'm sure he will explain.

My personal opinion is that it is galvanic action doing the final blow. I just cannot believe the detergent chemical corrosion alone can do so much damage so quickly in some cases to the aluminum. The volt meter doesn't lie either. It also is the glue that ties all other theories on the cause of spider failure.

Anyone who has seen plumbing where some cheapskate skipped the dielectric union knows how quickly a pipe will rot out. (My father was a plumber for 27 years)
 
A long time ago

I would have believed this. But now that I'm on my 13th year with my Duet FL washer, I think it has everything to do with washing habits and nothing to do with the dissimilar metals. I think using a little bleach with whites and hot water must do something to prevent this from happening. What? I don't know. But my spider should have corroded a LONG time ago if this was the case. When my duet dies, I'd love for someone to take it apart to examine it. I'm the only one who has used it. Hot water, bleach in whites, ammonia and HE powder in colors, a tiny bit of fab softener. I notice this spider corrosion also coincides with foul odors, so that should tell you something too. It's got to the be washing habits causing it.
 
 
A friend has a Kenmore HE3 (not t) that's 14 years old (2003, 38th week).  Only repair to my knowledge is replacement of the pump several years ago, which was done by me.  She does tons of pet laundry and uses bleach.  She fosters rescue dogs and has a pack of 23+ at all times including fosters & residents (they're all allowed into the house) ... plus cats and a cockatoo that's more than 35 yo.

Another friend has an HE3t that's 15 years old (2002, 42nd week).  Water valve was replaced last year.  I don't know how often he uses bleach.  It was given to him 4 to 5 years ago.  I don't think he was aware of the heating capability until I explained the Sanitary cycle.  I have no info on the previous owners' usage habits or their repair history.
 
I Had

the same same Kenmore front loader for 11 years until the bearing gave out. I really loved that machine, got rid of it when the 'bearing' (I was told) went out and apparently it was going to cost more than that excellent machine was worth.

I'd sure have been happy to use bleach, which I almost never use, if I'd known it would give longer life.

If bleach works for making a longer-lived washer, why wouldn't the manufacturers recommend using it on occasion? Heaven knows, they sure push Affresh and all those things...

BTW at least 75% of my wash was hot water and 25% warm. No cold.
 
Actually, Ken,

you're just too young to remember when car makers did exactly that.

The funny thing to look at is an original Model T owner's manual from 1910-1926. It was almost scolding the new owners about how they needed to treat their cars properly, and not blame the company if the car didn't perform as expected if they didn't.
 
There is no doubt that there will be a galvanic potential between the dissimilar metal parts. And it is likely measurable as Andrew's photo shows. It should be noted that the input impedance of that meter is 10 Million ohms, I'd be curious as to the magnitude of the potential if there was slightly more loading.

As I said before (#121) the galvanic corrosion isn't the primary cause of the failure. If it were then ALL the machines would fail in a similar time frame. But we see many machines serving a longer then design lifetime with no corrosion issues, then some machines see significant corrosion in a short time frame. What is the reason for the difference? As postulated in this thread several times it is from a bio-film buildup on the spider do to poor usage habits. In machines with a clean spider casting the corrosion is minimal.

So now lets consider the engineers that made these machines. Were they clueless to the possibility of a galvanic reaction when they designed the machine? The pragmatist in me says they considered this issue and deemed it to not be a problem in normal use. A machine isn't designed to last forever, if it were cost would be prohibitive. Within a 10-20 year design life with proper usage the spider isn't going to fail.
 
A proposed solution to me would seem to isolate the tub with rubber insulators from the spider so that while there would be potential, the circuit would be open and thus it couldn't short to itself when there is an electrolyte present. In other words, extrapolate the dielectric union concept from plumbing to the joints between the spider and the tub.

I believe the spider is already grounded by virtue of the frame.

To all those saying galvanic action cannot explain why some corrode and others don't based on usage, I reiterate that the buildup by improper usage is what can act as the electrolyte when they cycle is over. Clean machines don't have this electrolyte remaining and thus don't have galvanic action and don't have spider failure.

Just my opinion.
 
sPeEDqUeEN is 100% correct

The bio film is the reason, as that bio film acts as electrolyte. Without electrolyte no complete galvanic element and barely any corrosion.
It's like a car battery that is dry. No voltage. Fill it with water, voltage.
During the actual wash cycle, the concentration of electrolyte is probably to low to cause corrosion.
And some washers are then grounded via the heater grounding.

I was beforehand of the opinion that it couldn't be of galvanic nature, but the voltage measurements proof otherwise.
It also makes sense in another way: Stainless steel used for the basket can't rust usually due to its structure as a mixture of elements, and aluminium usually dosen't deteriorate as it is covered with a layer of aluminium oxide by nature which acts as a natural, self-repairing rust protection layer.
The galvanic corrosion however "pulls atoms from within the spider to the surface" so to speak, just going past the natural rust protection of the aluminium and just bypassing the protection of the SS material.

Grounding would help if I didn't mix up my knowledge there (grounding the less precious material, in that case aluminium).
But it is not given in todays machines! The tub is plastic, thus no direct grounding through the cabinet. You'd have to put a ground wire to the bearing.

Or you seperate drum and spider. There are enormous forces acting on that connection however, and any isolator I know of would be far weaker then the aluminium, so that is not really an option.
 
Grounding Of SS Tubs And Spiders Etc

All these parts are deliberately grounded on most FL or TL washers, so grounding does not seem help, on machines with plastic outer tubs there is a ground wire running to the bearing hub, this id done for safety in case the heater or other electrical part fails and comes into contact with the basket which could present a hazzard to the appliances user.

 

John L.
 
Is it not possible that there are many factors

Involved in corrosion? And most of those factors are mitigated through cleaning? Some corroding factors are no doubt enhanced by the manner in which a machine is used.

I've mentioned here before that I spent a long time cleaning and repairing machines in Germany. Spider corrosion was minimal, even on the lowest-end Italian machines.

And they do, indeed, use chlorine bleach in Italy.

They also let the machines dry out (open doors) let the machines heat the water to temperatures which minimize microbial slime build up (and guess what that slime does) and use detergents which actually, you know, clean.

American makers (and those programming otherwise European machines) for quite a while refused to learn from the 50+ years experience of the rest of the world. At the same time as they were not putting drain holes in the boots, lowering water levels to non-functional levels and using poor programming and poor quality materials there were two other factors at hand:

1) No heating elements - the absurdly weak 110V/15Amp (110, 115, 117, 120, 121, 125, 127VAC, for the a-retentive) power available makes more than lukewarm washing impossible.

2) Until very recently, the phosphate free detergents on offer in the US were beyond useless.

 

So, yeah, galvanic corrosion is a thing. So is corrosion from the microbial slime. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to find evidence that cavitation plays a role.

It's not the chlorine bleach, primarily, it's the build up of microbes and filth coupled with arrogant manufacturers who couldn't be bothered to research because, after all, what could the rest of the world know?
 
I highly doubt that the suggested cleaning procedure for our 2008 Affinity FL has much, if any impact on the spider.  It's just a standard wash cycle with bleach, which I run perhaps twice a year on average.

 

Our Duet OTOH, employed a medium speed spin during its "Clean Washer" cycle that threw the bleach solution into every possible nook and cranny.  Since the Affinity doesn't even possess a dedicated cycle for cleaning,  I'm amazed that we've gotten over nine years of service from it without a catastrophe.

 
 
My duet is from 2005 before clean washer cycles were on the washers. However, I learned after 5 or 6 years of owning it that I can press a sequence of buttons to activate a clean washer cycle where it fills with a lot of water and spins rapidly with throwing water EVERYWHERE! I think I have to press select drain/spin. select warm/cold, cycle signal to low, and extra rinse 3 times or something like that. I haven't used it in a while. I got my manual out and it's indeed in the very back what the sequence is. I never even noticed it in the manual when I first read it.

I do wish our washers connected to 220V like the dryers or ranges. But even still, if I choose heavy duty/more soil or whitest whites more soil, and especially sanitary, my duet gets plenty hot, like dishwasher hot.
 
@ combo52;

Galvanic corrosion *IS* with absolutely no doubt the mechanism of destruction the fact that the two dissimilar metals have an electrolyte between them, current WILL FLOW, the current is generated as the weaker metal dissolved (zinc in the copper-zinc equation).

You are saying it's 'operator error' which is nonsense because it only can happen do to the systemic DESIGN FLAW.

Inventing a machine that IS A BATTERY at least (at all times while being used), does not let the designers of said machine off-the-hook just because people that happen to remove all the electrolyte out of the battery between uses manage to get longer life out of their battery. It's absolute fact.

A couple very simple solutions would have prevented this world-wide sham; paint the spider for $1 per machine would have done the trick.

You can't insulated the spider from the tub because they are bolted together, you'd have to use non-conductive bolts, that will not be possible. An insulating washer would possibly help because it will increase the thickness of the electrolytic film required to bridge the gap, but it just takes 'not the perfect soap' to build up just a 0.001" thickness per use and it can build up a centimeter in half a year.

The spider is grounded through the bearing, the tub is grounded through the bolts holding the spider to the tub. 'grounding' is related to the problem; the tub and spider are electrically connected.

I just realized a caveat; you COULD insulate the tub from the spider by using a non-conductive WASHER between the bolts/screw heads and the tub, while ALSO using an insulator between the tub and the spider.

The problem with that; is you just made a capacitor; a crappy one so hopefully wouldn't be able to build voltage. You also didn't eliminate the battery action if enough paste builds up.

I'm working on re-building a spider on one of these machines. The epoxy was not strong enough and the drum started to wobble. I will share my solution with photos as I resolve this issue.

If i retain any of the original aluminum spider I will paint it to eliminate conduction through the electrolyte. If I don't, I will be using steel for the new spider spokes and that should not have a different enough chemical make-up from stainless to generate a voltage.

My purpose in my initial post was to counteract any of the posting out there 'in the wild' of the internet trying to claim that the spider damage was other than galvanic corrosion; by measuring the voltage created across the spider to tub interface is absolute proof that the inner tub of *ANY AND ALL* known front loading washing machines *are a galvanic cell*. I'm not aware of any that paint the spider or use steel for the spider. Anybody aware of any examples that have an actual method to prevent galvanic corrosion, please do share.

The damage is absolutely and almost exclusively caused by galvanic corrosion. Chemical corrosion an every other example are negligible in comparison. If you were to etch aluminum with an acid or a base, it will build up a protective layer of the reactant, that will stop the reaction. Aluminum oxide is so tough, you can't weld through it, puh lease, bleach disolve? yeah right!

I showed the multimeter that demonstrates with ZERO doubt that galvanic corrosion absolutely happens, If I am wrong show me a chemical corrosion experiment demonstrating a real-world mixture dissolved into the ratio you will find in a FL machine and I will admit that *some small amount* of chemical corrosion may also cause some small amount of damage (maybe 10% of the damage).

The vast majority of damage of all these spiders is absolutely galvanic. If you use detergent that dissolves easily enough to drain and not leave residue it will only cause damage while the machine is running, but it will STILL always dissolve while the machine has soapy water; the electrolyte can be liquid not a paste.

-awr
 
Hi AWR, how come the spiders only corrode and break on machines that are used with cold water, too little detergent, and no chlorine bleach ?, explain that. If it was a design flaw all FL washers would corrode and fail and yet when FD redesigned their FL washers a decade ago and used a much heaver spider we have never seen one fail since, we have also never seen a SQ spider fail in commercial use.

 

We have far more real life experience with FL washers in real homes than you do, we have literately thousands of customers with FL washers and have seen nearly 1000 spiders fail and when you see the gunky machine it is never a surprise that it corroded and broke.

 

The other interesting thing is when these same home machines are used in commercial settings often washing up to 20 loads a day the spiders never corrode and break.

 

John L.
 
Easy enough to explain; I've worked on a few of these machines that almost exclusively use WARM water wash, occasional bleach use. 100% of the FL i've opened up have galvanic corrosion. (laws of physics dictate this should be expected)

It does TAKE YEARS (on the order of ten) to reach a point of evident failure from the operator's standpoint. It also makes sense that cold-water wash speeds up the destruction as the detergent will not dissolve as well into cold water no matter what the mfg brags. By adding thickness to the spider just makes it last longer; if it takes 10 years to fail with 0.15 thickness making it 0.20 thick might last 20-25 years and effectively eliminate the failure mode since something else will break first it's still a BAND-AID. a FIX eliminates the problem (e.g. paint the spider so no conduction can take place).

It makes perfect sense that the commercial machines don't have the failure mode; the continuous use prevents the dry off cycle that allows for the film to build up, they also may have a programmed in clean cycle or extra rinse, or the typical use pattern (hot water, more bleach etc) that remove the source of the electrolytic film/paste build-up. If they are regularly cleaned the galvanic corrosion can be the secondary corrosion and just normal chemical corrosion can be the primary wear, the thickness of the metal would allow it to last 40 years with just chemical corrosion (base etching the aluminum).

It's the pause between uses (home machines likely used 2-4x per week, perhaps less), that allows the film to dry between uses and turn into the paste that stays between washes and will build up and stay there 24-7 and not only be a galvanic cell while washing. If that film is greatly reduced by hot water, or extra rinse or continuous use, there won't be enough surface area in contact with both metals to create an effective battery cell. The paste builds up, sort of dries out but gets wetted each use, the wet paste sticks to new material each wash and it builds up a little more each time.

Facts are still facts; the corrosion we see on these spiders is demonstrably from galvanic corrosion. The MFG brags that we can use them to wash with cold water, but designed them so that if we do, they self-destruct that is the very definition of a design failure. They designed it to fail.

(they didn't do on purpose it was an oversight).

They don't design them differently for use in commercial machines afaik, so again, design FLAW; they know from 100 years of people using machines, that normal people want to use cold water both to keep clothes looking better and to spend less $ on heating water, they brag about it, specifically the brag is that FL machines can clean better with cold water, they also have a very specific guide of how much detergent to use each use so your too little soap comment doesn't hold water. The machine doesn't clear out the soap each use when used occasionally that is a design flaw (for a residential machine). The MFG will say to use only certain kinds of soap (as a band-aid to the design flaw, it's ludicrous). If TIDE could be proven to be the primary cause of the spider destruction that would be a very big lawsuit.

To be clear MY discussion pertains exclusively to the residential use of a FL washing machine. As far as i can tell every single one has the same design flaw; an uncoated aluminum spider electrically attached to a steel drum and collects a growing film of soap residue that is an electrolyte. That is is *possible* to treat the machine 'just right' and only have a self-destructive machine every time it's operating vs 24-7 doesn't negate the fact that every MFG overlooked the galvanic problem and to this day is pretending it doesn't exist so they won't have legal liability that goes back 40-50 years when they first made the decision to not coat the spiders when some smart engineer noticed that it's a galvanic cell and sent a memo that is locked deep deep in a safe buried in a mountain that said they should coat the spiders or they could be having a problem as the spider consumes itself.

It is implausible that 'they didn't know' mechanical engineers KNOW. They knew, they know now, they will know in a decade that it was a bad decision to put dissimilar metals into an electrolyte and to save money they chose to not paint the spiders. It took 15-20 years to really find out the gravity of their mistake and since 100s of MILLION$ are on the line they must lie and cover-up the truth. If people died from it and not just forced to replace a $1000 machine twice as often, the recall and lawsuits would be monumental. One could argue planned obsolesce and they did it on-purpose so that people would have to replace the machine more often, they could even argue it's a conspiracy among all the brands since they all have the problem, and people will very likely NOT by the SAME brand (ironically switching from kenmore to whirlpool etc), and not realizing that ALL BRANDS have the same systemic failure problem.

it's also a FACT that maintained in 'just the right way' it will be possible to avoid the galvanic destruction when used in a residential setting. This will require non-normal use of a machine, it will require maintenance outside the normal use 'plug and play' that 99% will follow, only the 1% will go through the effort required to prevent the problem.

So summary: your statement "only machines which use cold water and too little detergent" is not accurate at all. You personally are in a situation of "can't see the forest for the trees" because you see too many machines and the apparently percentage is too many commercial machines.

100% of the residential machines that i've worked on have this problem. I'm working out a preventative maintenance solution to add years to these machines' lives by taking out the drum, sand-blast the gunk off the spider and paint them. The galvanic corrosion will stop in its tracks and some other part can be the 'end of life' failure mode.

Google galvanic corrosion hall of shame, or similar, you will find 1000s of pictures of this problem. I'm not saying it's not possible to avoid the problem, i'm saying that laws of physics dictate that ANY two dissimilar metals that are in an electrolyte and have an electrical connection will generate electricity and the anode of the two will dissolve that's simply how it works, 100% of the time. You can slow the rate the anode dissolves by reducing any of the factors; how much surface area is touching both the electrolyte and the two metals, use different metals, etc, but as long as they are different, touching, and bathed in electrolyte it's the very definition of a galvanic cell and will dissolve.

-awr
 
Before this is all considered "fact," there needs to be more chemical and mechanical/material study. And typing it all in caps doesn't make it more so.
These are claims from your observation, and even John's observation.
The tests and observations are of course interesting and appreciated.
Some of those observations coincide, and some seem not to.
It seems like this issue can have a lot of facets. From part design, metal composition, assembly procedure, customer use, additives used, home conditions, WATER conditions etc etc.

(example: I have very alkaline water, softened, 8 - 8.5ph, whereas my parents have hard, Chicago water at 7.0ph. Our appliances wash very differently with different detergents.)

I'd like to hear from some appliance engineers hiding in the weeds on this issue.
If it is in fact some kind of rampant galvanic issue, I'm sure the appliance engineers work on this and with it.

**Please engineers, come forth. Help us understand.
You do not have to reveal what house you work for. **

Also, for this to be truly scientific, we need lots of peer reviewed and repeated experimentation and observation.

This crisis also reminds me of my pharmacist dad, who insists that all of society is sick and on drugs. Well, yeah from his perspective. All he sees is the sick people....cuz they need his drugs! He's not seeing the vast swaths of healthy people.
This here, if it was that much of a corrosion pandemic, it would be all over the news and we'd be covered in stories of exploding front loaders.
Which we're not.
Not to say it NOT a problem. But it seems like a minor one in the market.
As always, "more study" is needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

A fact is a statement that is true or can be proven with evidence. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability — that is, whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experience. Standard reference works are often used to check facts. Scientific facts are verified by repeatable careful observation or measurement (by experiments or other means).

Thank you AWR for your "thesis" and I would happily like to see these claims re-tested to see how the observations and electrical measurements match up.

Also, I'll offer this thread for further reading. The comments were interesting:
https://fixitnow.com/wp/2009/10/28/...ion-contagion-a-menagerie-of-metallic-misery/

^ there's a link in there about a WP Canadian court case where WP had to change the aluminum specs and design to reduce corrosion, which it seems they did around 2008.
 

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