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I THOUGHT I was missing THAT!

I KNEW my underware drawer was looking empty! - Someone must be selling my tighty whites on ebay ! LoL

Sorry i have been quiet peeps, but been in London at a big Green / Enviromentla fair! Test Drove a new electric car, my god you Americans would roll on the floor laughing if you saw it! Its TINY! Think of a normal compact car and halve it, then you have the G-Wiz, take a look here!

http://www.goingreen.co.uk/?PageID=AboutGWiz
 
Re. small electric car *great* idea. The UK has always been ahead of the US on small cars. Do a lookup on "Isetta" for a good example. 65 mpg in the 1950s. And another version of the same design made by Heinkel got 88 - 94 mpg. Personally I think the retro designs are cooler than the modern ones, but hey, if it runs and carries two people plus some "stuff," it's OK. I think we'll see more of these in the future, particularly with Toshiba's new battery that recharges to 80% of capacity in one minute, and 100% in three minutes. Faster than filling up with gasoline.

Re. poop: The desire for privacy isn't the same thing as shame. In an evolutionary sense, when you're doing your business you're vulnerable to attack, and the smell gives away your location to predators. So natural selection favored those who sought a protected place for those purposes.

Public bathrooms are really crappy architectural design: zero acoustic or olfactory privacy. You can see and be seen through the gaping cracks in the stall doors, you can hear, and be heard, as plain as day (plus an echo for emphasis!), and you can smell, and be smelled (in a manner of speaking). The idea of that kind of forced intimacy at that level is downright gross. Amazing that such crappy design is still the norm when it would be easy enough to provide real privacy.

Re. weird sexualities: As long as it's all consenting adults, but adult farm animals don't count:-).... What's *really* perverse is the amount of *violence* in the media. Think of it objectively for a moment: audiences get some kind of "good feeling" from watching the glorification of all manner of felonies, and from watching people get murdered, beaten, robbed, etc. That is really sick, and sicker still that children are allowed to watch it.
 
We have finally gotten smart and put planters above/within the concrete highway (freeway) dividers. Now the tall trees and bushes prevent curious gore-seekers from stopping and slowing traffic in the OTHER direction.

That is one good thing that has come out of these huge trucks that have made their way to he average driver in and around NYC.. the concrete dividers became taller to shield oncoming traffic from headlights.

Based on the trend towards huge trucks here, these little elcetric cars would be like a tow-boat briging in the cruise-liner. Still IMHO nothing beats the security offered while on the road of:

1) Knowing the rules of the road
2) Being decisive
3) Anticipating the errors of others
4) Thinking of others while driving
5) Being focused on the one task at hand (lives are at stake)
6) I HATE CELL PHONES ONT HE ROAD. NYS law requires a hands-free headset $20 max. Still very few buty one....
 
Quote: ... Recently confessed -on live radio- to having "relations" with farm animals specifically mules but also others unspecified.

There is a seciton of the world where you can entertain your camel, but be sure she's female.. if not, it's a crime.
 
SUV owners should be shot!

Basically in England there is a big governemnt initiative at the moment to increase the road tax of SUV drivers to something like £900 a year. GREAT! I guess its a step into stop[pping people buying these boats of wheels.

There is NO REASON for a normal person (ie not a farmer) to be driving one of these thigs, I mean 12 MPG is outragous!

Yes i think electric is deff the way forward, that car i want os only for cities as only does 40 miles to the charge, fine for me as I rarly drive longer than 10 miles a day.

But other car , made but now scrapped by GM could do much furthur, you may have seen them in Calinfornia.
 
..well I wouln't necessarily SHOOT them. But But I'd love to see two smaller cars pull up on both sides of a large SUV and FORCE the driver to stay in ONE lane. Taking two lanes for one vehicle makes me very angry!

Regarding the touted tremendous efficiency of these small cars:

The average gasoline powered internal-combusion engine only harnesses about 17% of the energy stored in gasoline. The rest is wasted as heat.

Now creating electricity harnesses about 1/3 of the energy (or 33.33%) of fossil fuels. Normally electric devices are nearly 100 efficient AT THE POINT OF USE (not overall)

So electric cars, in theory, could use about half the energy that is currently being used.

Good luck getting Bush (or anyone else for that matter) to push this country to energy efficiency.

Let's start small by adopting the metric system in this country (which I hate, but it is a necessary "evil" already)
for the sake of simplifying world trade.

If most of Europe can go to a new currency (where denominations and prices resemble ours), we can go to the metric sytem.

Then we can go from there. Baby steps.

....and as I have said again and again, everyone is entitled to my opinion. LOL
 
Remember a few things

Overall, the internal combustion engine IS very efficient as a package. This is why it is used in so many applications when you could easily use another form of engine.

Second, electric cars shift the pollution upstream. You are going to have to build more powerplants to handle the load. And how do powerplants work? Chiefly coal and other burning processes. A perfect closed loop system would be a fusion generation of electric power and electric cars--but that is a long way off.

Right now, we still don't have batteries that are effiecient, long lasting enough, and provide a long enough run cycle with items such as air-conditioning turned on. You can throw all the research dollars you want at this, but the answer comes when it comes, not unlike a cure for cancer.

Comparable to just a few years ago, the internal combustion engine is actually a marvel of efficiency. Until electric cars can get 100s of miles on a charge, and allow 0-60 acceleration times in at least the 9 second range, and are priced well, you won't get people to buy them. Don't blame the politicians, this is a consumer issue. People are afraid of being stuck somewhere with their kids or for business. You will not get people over this worry, and you shouldn't expect to, until there are better technologies. Crampt 2 seat "urban" vehicles have been tried for 50 years and no one wants them.

That all said, I have a bit of an issue with the anti-SUV mindset. Not to get too political here, but last I checked, this is a free country. I don't have an SUV, but if I did, that is my choice, and my choice to burn my energy as I want. I have a friend who is anti-SUV, but she constantly throws parties, vacations and jets around, and has the air conditioning running non-stop in here home. The last time she crowed about how green she was by getting a hybrid, I apprised her of all the "wasteful energy" habits she had in other aspects of her lifestyle. Kind of like Barbra Streisand telling all us little people to hang our clothes out while she air conditions a 7000 foot mansion!

When people use very little energy in other aspects of their life, I think they can lecture the rest of the people who have an SUV!
 
power plants

"Second, electric cars shift the pollution upstream. You are going to have to build more powerplants to handle the load. And how do powerplants work?"

BUT, it's much easier to control pollution from one central source than a whole bunch of little polluters running around
 
Some really good points!

I'm not necessarily a tree-hugger, and have no problem with my gasoline-fired vehicle. I will only go electric vehicle when it becomes as versatile and convenient as today's standards.

I suppose I was whining about the EGO behind larger cars, and the complete lack of regard for others by SOME who have these larger vehicles. ....and just to moan some more.

Picture this: (Can you say multiple distractions?)

Huge GMC "Suburban" model
Rug-rats galore. (Preferably on a sugar-high)
Live cigarette
Cell (mobile) phone in face.
Fumbling with radio/ briefacase/purse.

I can't imagine WHY these vehicles are possibly all over the road. LOL

Regarding Barbara and little people...I can see how "Me first, screw you" could possibly make this world ugly....

In my office it gets cold around 2pm when the A/C kicks in full-force. Some younger people wear revealing clothing with abdomens and such hanging out. They turn on their electric heaters to provide warmth (rather than putting on a sweater or at least something with long sleeves) and have no clue that this could possibly be wasteful, offensive, selfish, ridiculous, IMHO.

It takes all types to make the world go 'round.
 
The SUV dillema

Really, the problem would take care of itself if we taxed fuel the way it is in Europe, make the cost of a gallon of gasoline $4 and those SUV's would be out of style so fast it would make your head spin! Other than military use (don't get me started on that!) there is little need for them in the private sector. What can be transported in a Suburban can easliy fit into a mini-van or similar vehicle and at savings of hundreds of miles per gallon every year.
 
Kevin, freedom without responsibility is licentiousness, which is immoral.

There is no Constitutional right to burn one's childrens' and grandchildrens' limited fossil fuel supply for the sake of one's own amusement, nor does anyone have any basis for moral standing to proclaim otherwise.

Electricity, meanwhile, is a different story, as it can -and will more and more- be generated from wind, sun, and uranium. We've solved the safety issues with nucelar reactors -four or five designs for advanced reactors to choose from. The French have solved the nuclear waste issue -recycle the stuff and stretch the world's supply of nuclear fuel by a factor of six or more. We should be going full steam ahead (ha) with a major nuclear construction program. A solid foundation of nuclear will also enable the maximum use of renewables notably wind, which can supply up to 20% of grid capacity (any more and the intermittency issue causes destabilization of the grid). Add another 30% from solar, cut back overall consumption via improved efficiency, and we've solved our energy problems.

Add the new Toshiba high-capacity instant-charging batteries, and you can drive all over creation if you choose. But between now and then, patience is not only a virtue, it's a necessity.

Air conditioning is the single largest issue with regard to electricity consumption, and is the focus of major engineering efforts that also include whole-building design changes. I don't have specialist knowledge in HVAC so I'll leave that topic to others who may.

As far as the entire vintage appliance field is concerned, a typical large top-loading washer consumes about 1/4 of a kilowatt-hour to do a load, which is practically nothing. A similar case applies to most of the appliances that folks here collect and restore: actual energy consumption is minimal. So the "sustainability cost" for the "entertainment value" of keeping the old machines whirring is minimal, unlike SUVs.

By the way, SUV is an oxymoron. A sports car is small, light, nimble on its wheels, quick through the corners, and sticks to the road like a treefrog on a window. A utility vehicle is a truck: a real truck, a creature of hard work with the muscles to prove it, and not a frill anywhere to be seen. An SUV is neither, but rather like a confused person whose goals are unclear and whose motion is neither graceful nor deliberate.
 
metric system

"Let's start small by adopting the metric system in this country (which I hate, but it is a necessary "evil" already)
for the sake of simplifying world trade."

Actually, we have adopted the metric system, the transition is just taking a while. Virtually every product is dual labeled, car speedometers are dual labled. New production machinery is always built to metric standards. I see speed limit signs in both standards. Even though it has nothing to do with metric system, we finally started using international symbols for traffic signs and control labeling in cars and appliances. Funny, though, even in metric countries, tire rim sizes are still in inches.

People don't like being "nagged" about stuff. The way to go is gradual change. Notice how smoking and not buckling your seat belt have slowly become socially "unacceptable" over the years?
 
think green!

I try to be eco-conscious but still like some conveniences.

When I put central air-conditoining in, I bought a solid brand and a model that had a higher efficiency than this climate normally warrants.

I use natural gas (more "green" than electric, IMHO) to dry my clothes, since it is avaiable to me.

Heat and hot water is oil-fired (not electric).

I do cook electrically, due to asthma and grime issues. Study in UK says kids in homes with gas cookers have asthma and other related respiratory ailments at twice the rate of electric-cooking families. I justify my use of electric cooker by the belief that the stove and the air-condtioning won't fight as much in the summer.

As I have said before gas cooking here reigns supreme. But my family is starting to see my logic and is thinking of getting an electric stove. (so much easier to keep the stove-top clean too!)

...Really it IS anathema in and around New york City if your home has gas. [In the city nearly 100% do..]
 
Now to say that the Suburban should be "off the roads" is unfair. They actually are quite practical vehicles (we owned one until recently), and are good for large families. Can the same amount of people/cargo fit into a minivan? Yes, but a minivan certainly isn't for everyone. The Suburban's 350 CI V8 may only reach 12 MPG or less, but it has more power than the 4-cylinder or V6 found on minivans. I believe that one of the biggest reasons many people don't drive hybrids is performance.

As for those car-based SUV's or "crossover" vehicles. CR constantly rants about them, mentioning that they get decent gas mileage, but wouldn't just driving a car do the same or better? I'm sorry, but I just don't see the usefulness of these; when was the last time you saw anyone hefting a 250 lb. belt-drive Kenmore into a Lexus RX400??

Another SUV that is completely useless in my opinion is the HUMMER. Just a $50,000 POS marketed as a "status symbol"; I've never seen one of these "at work", so to speak, but it still gets 12 MPG. THAT is capital U-S-E-L-E-S-S...

--Austin
 
Look how big MINE is...

The Hummer is IMHO the eptiome of "mine is bigger than yours."
which gets tired by the fourth grade, doesn't it?

$50,000? I can only say I have even less respect for the owners of those with that little factoid exposed.
 
Status symbol

HA!

A far as I'm concerned the only status symbol there is on earth is to...

let's say hock a piece of your gold.. and feed a family down the street for a month that really needs it.

or volunteer at the local hospital, etc.

...cause when you are 6 feet under all that remains is the love and concern that you gave.

...one major fire and your house is gone.
... one major car accident and your looks are gone.
If you ugly on the inside you's ugly on the outside.

Everyone do something beautiful and self-less today.
 
Actually underestimated the price!

According to Consumer Reports, the price range for the Hummer H2 goes from $51,435 to $56,225. Yow!
 
More misc thoughts

My opinion is that probably 95% of what people need an SUV for could be accomplished with a full sized station wagon. But somewhere along the line, wagons became associated with a negative, "geeky" connotation. People think Brady Bunch, or reject what their mom had. I loved, always will live, a wagon though. Those that think they had no style should look at a vintage 60s Chrysler Town and Country, an Olds Vista Cruiser, or a Buick Sportwagon. These were cool and functional.

So if you didnt want a minivan, you HAD to get something like a Suburban or other SUV. It is funny, but a Suburban is nothing but a wagon on a truck chassis! Bottom line, there were no alternatives.

I for one do not advocate just wasting energy. However, knocking someone for having an SUV is silly. As I mentioned before, you don't know how someone is using energy. Maybe their SUV gets 1/2 the mileage of your car, but you drive 3 times as much, so net net, YOU spend more on energy. What about people who commute for two hours in bumper to bumper traffic, but their wife is a stay at home mom who puts 20K a year on her Hummer, but needs it every weekend for her nursery activities and hauling the kids to school? Targeting SUVs is silly, although I will agree that for most people it is overkill.

Let us also remember that many many SUVs are car based now and get very similar MPG to cars. Also, you will notice (I was the guy 4 years ago saying that wagons will be coming back) that wagons ARE in fact coming back, they just don't call them that. Look at the X BMWs, the Dodge Magnum, etc. Just as soon as vehicles like this morph into more carrying capability, my guess is that you will see more people move into them than into SUVs.
 
Now the Vista Cruiser, that was such a cool wagon. Our family was huge into trailer camping and dad pulled us 3 kids,mom and the dog to almost every corner of N.America but we never had a station wagon which was sort of strange considering
 
OK

I drive a truck, talk on the cell phone, smoke at the same time! I stay in my lane, pay attention, obey signals,and don't even spill my coffee! The majority of the people can't drive so if some dumbass hits me guess who's gonna survive! Plus, If I need to haul something I'm all set! Yes, I do have to spend 40.00 to fill my tank! But that's my choice! I wouldn't have it any other way! Just my two cents.
 
Hummer

"Another SUV that is completely useless in my opinion is the HUMMER. Just a $50,000 POS marketed as a "status symbol"; I've never seen one of these "at work", so to speak, but it still gets 12 MPG. THAT is capital U-S-E-L-E-S-S... "

and U-G-L-Y
 
Interesting how this thread went from underwear to SUVs.

Initially I was never a big SUV fan. I really liked station wagons. My Sable wagon was coming off lease and I needed something to haul stuff for the house, doors, trim moulding and such. The Sable was fun. It had the 24 valve engine, got into the mid 20s for gas mileage and was pretty peppy to drive. If auto makers were smart they would reintroduce a full size type wagon.

I got my first SUV, the Mountaineer. Gets about 16.6 average with combination freeway/city driving. I will say it's been a workhorse. Last weekend hauled 20 bags of bark chips in it. It still smells like Pine Fresh Glade. Do use it to haul trash and stuff to the local dump as well. And when family comes to town I can get six other people in it. Though most of the time, it is just me in the car.

I've been looking at the new Mercury Mariner Hybrid. It will come out this Fall, the sister car to the Escape Hybrid and Mazda's Tribute should be out in 2006 or 2007. I did discover that the hybrid does some curious things. Such as, when it's stopped, say at a red light, the A/C does not run. You can bypass this if you run the A/C on Maximum. Of course that runs the gas engine. In the desert here, during the Summer, it would keep the engine running all the time, so not as much savings as I thought.

Mercury also isn't doing a lot of upgrades to the vehicle. In my opinion, when you get into the high 20/low 30K range, certain features like the remote radio controls on the steering wheel or automatic climate control are usually standard.

Ford is supposed to be adding hybrid technology to the new Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan lines in a couple of years. They'll debut this Fall, along with the Lincoln Zephyr.

Bethann, you're not alone! I drive the same way!!
 
500 Cubes

As long as the gas companies are not discriminating as to who they'll sell to, I'll continue to drive my Cadillacs. As crazy as it sounds, there are folks out there (such as me) that will spend several hours of their lives each week to earn the cash to pay for the added fuel costs to keep certain vehicles on the roads, whether it be vintage coupes or SUVs. In the end there are those who trade 'em in to be crushed, and those who are merely stewards for the owners of the next generations or two. I plan on seeing these autos continue the legacy...

Don't get me wrong, I've considered building an electric razorback Seville, but the travel distance is still pretty limited and hybrids have not yet broken the barriors demanded by the general public. SUVs like Bravadas and Explorers have difficulty hauling bulky materials like wood beams and 4x8 sheets of plywood, and this is where a Suburban comes in. In fact, vintage GM clamshell wagons touted their ability to haul trailers and building supplies. A fridge would not be a peoblem!

Also, before everyone freaks out, real world Buick economy on the highway at 70mph is 32mpg by real-live people. V8 Deville economy is 28 mpg in a headwind on the interstate. These are full size vehicles with cargo and people carrying capacity! 6 People in comfort with a trunk full of luggage is not the same as a late model Toyota/Nissan/Honda running around. Period.
 

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