Ungrounded Outlets

[Chetlaham]

UK homes typically have at least one 6 or 10 amp radial lighting circuit in that should the ring MCB blow, hardwired ceiling and wall mounted fixtures are still functional.

 

A 32 amp ring and one 10 amp lighting circuit in the UK can supply more power than 4 120 volt circuits- two rated at 20 amps and two at 15 amps in a typical US home. Hence there are no code requirements restricting a circuit to any particular area as you find in the NEC. 

 

[sudsmaster]

Well, went to Home Depot and picked up my copy of  "Wiring Simplified". It looks good.

 

If I have a complaint, though, it would be that the type is a bit small. Not so small that I need a magnifier, but sort of on the edge.

 

Anyway, I'm wondering if the original edition was in a larger format (2017 version or earlier, that is). Maybe not, since the added size might adversely affect sticking it in a tool box. LOL.

 

Anyway, I'll be roaming through Wiring Simplified over the next few days/weeks/months.

 

PS- About 40 years ago, I had a temp job with an electrical contractor who had helped wire a new building for the lab I was working. Wiring Simplified would have been a good read back then, too.

 

[combo52]

Reply number 47, Chinese getting it right?

I’ve never seen a receptacle in the US where the metal mounting bracket is not connected to either the ground or the neutral, depending on the outlet configuration, etc.

John

 

[Chetlaham]

Have a look at the pictures in reply #46.

 

 

There is no strap between the neutral terminal and the receptacles yoke.

 

This is correct for a listed NEMA 10-30r and 10-50r.

 

 

I encourage you to look at any NEMA 10-30 or 10-50 made by a reputable brand like Leviton, Hubbell, Eaton, Legrand, ect.

 

[Chetlaham]

Got Some For the Collection

the white ones were sold out, but I did manage to get some brown ones-

 

[bradfordwhite]

According to the book, in 1956 one could still freely install knob and tube wiring but it also says most people don't because it's too expensive. lol

These days the ideal electric system would have all lighting wired as 12 volt DC, most outlets in the bedrooms, living rooms, and offices/libraries being 12 volt DC with USB outlets.

Really the only place 120 volt AC is needed is at specific appliances like the water heater, washing machine, kitchen counter, etc. and most of those appliances are located in only a few rooms.

With the main wiring system being 12 DC it's easy to draw power from a solar system battery bank. All the LED lights are low voltage and need to have built in transformers to work on the current 120volt AC set up.

I think I would put one 120 v AC outlet in each bedroom or living room next to the entrance at a convenient height of 30"

 

[gizmo]

12V DC wiring...

I have a dual-voltage wired home - 12 V DC and 230 V AC.

There are disadvantages to 12 V too - voltage drop over distance becomes much more significant, you need short wire runs and heavy cables to keep voltage drop to a minimum. The cables are substantially more expensive than regular household cable for 240V.

Most "real" solar power systems (ones really designed to run a home, not just tinkering with the concept) have higher battery voltage than 12V - most these days are 48V DC, some are higher than that. So if you want 12V DC outlets, you need a DCC converter.

 

My battery voltage is 24V, that was common when we built this house but as systems have become larger, 48V is the standard now. We have a DCC converter to provide 12V from the 24V battery bank, it is limited to 10 amps at 12 volts. (You can get bigger ones.)

The only thing we still use on the 12V side is a couple of lights in the kitchen. In the early days we also ran TV antenna booster; cordless phone base station; and a small fan to circulate air from our wood heater, but all these gadgets are either no longer used, or replaced with something that doesn't use 12V.

 

The original thinking was that we have a quite sophisticated  Australian-made inverter that goes into a power saving mode when there is no load on it, cutting battery power consumption to just a couple of watts. Once every second it checks for a load and if it finds a load (minimum is about 3 watts) then it turns on, which draws about 15 watts minimum to run the inverter for even the smallest load. If the load falls below 3 watts, the inverter turns off and goes back to standby mode. This works really well, better than most new inverters today, which are more "made to a price" than ours. The thing is, we have a much bigger solar array - originally we had 1.2 kW of panels at this house, then upgraded to 2.4, then 3.6 and we are about to increase it to 4 kW. (Which is the most we can fit on the garage roof.) We have some gadgets that must be powered 24/7 such as mobile phone signal booster and printers, as well as phone chargers we use at night, so the inverter is now on 24/7 and hasn't dropped back to standby mode for years. We now have enough panels to cover this background power consumption. So we don't really need the 12V DC wiring, I'm not sure if I'd bother if we had to build this house again. (heaven forbid!) I might still have some DC lights, so that in case the inverter fails we would still have lights.

One thing I might do in future is install some USB outlets on the 12V DC circuit. You can't have too many these days. I'll look into that, I'm not sure how easy it is to find USB wall outlets that take a 12V DC  supply.

 

As a funny aside, we laid some very heavy DC cables from the battery shed to the house to give us the option to run a special low voltage 24 V DC fridge. These cables are huge as the low voltage DC fridge compressors at the time were very sensitive to voltage drop. The converted fridges cost over $2000 so we didn't get one at the beginning, we used an LPG fridge. Then we added more solar panels, and standard fridges got way more efficient, so we just got an efficient 240V AC fridge. The expensive DC cables we laid 20 years ago have never been used. They are still there...

 

We also wanted to be all future-proof, so we put cat 5 data-grade phone cables to most rooms, so we could have dial-up internet in each of 5 rooms... We no longer have a land line phone connection at all, the whole system, including 250 metres of cable from the front gate to our house, is redundant. It took me two whole days with a hired trenching machine to dig the trench for that cable... D'oh!

 

[Chetlaham]

I like space space heaters though. 120/230 has its place.

 

[bradfordwhite]

#66

Yes with D.C. one has to be cognizant of voltage drop even from room to room but it's mainly within one's home. Most solar arrays are on the roof or near by. Having to beef up some branch main lines is a small price to pay for energy independence imo.

I suggest the 12 volt for simplicity sake. Avoiding transformers and the like which can be high maintenance, expensive to replace and points of noise, heat, and energy usage. I'd rather invest money one time in thicker gauge wires so one can move power from one point in a home to another efficiently. Copper wires don't break down.

An independent 48 volt system is preferred for the few high watt use appliances where stepping up the 12 volt to 120 volt AC is preferred.

Technology is always changing, becoming more affordable and easier to use. It's just incredible.

 

[novum]

Irish wiring is like a hybrid of UK fittings and more like continental European wiring practices. We usually use a lot of 16 and 20amp radial circuits. Rings are permitted but they’re way less common than in the UK.

Lighting circuits are usually 6 or 10amp.

RCDs (GFCIs) were require originally only on circuits with socket outlets in the or water heating appliances etc in the 1970s and 80s. They have expanded that to all circuits. There’s a lot of use of combined breaker / RCD units called RCBOs in modern wiring.

Unlike the UK through, most homes have at least a couple of rows or breakers, as rings aren’t used much.

Also rings aren’t allowed in kitchens / utilities. Multiple radials are required instead.

Grounding is absolutely mandatory and has been since the 1930s. You won’t find any non grounded outlets. They simply don’t exist.

 

[Marky_Mark]

I spotted this yesterday in Koffi, Palm Springs.  This place was built in 2008, so I don't know how this ungrounded outlet has found its way in here!  I find the cockeyed installation more objectionable than the fact that it won't accept a 3-prong plug

 

Mark

 

[bradfordwhite]

Maybe the place was remodeled in '08 and made larger with the core of the original (most likely 60's built) structure still under the gussied up make-over.

 

[combo52]

Ungrounded outlet in a commercial building

It looks like some hack put that in, that would never have been legal since the mid-50s in a commercial building.

John

 

[Chetlaham]

Now thats way cool!

 

 

However I'd have to agree with the last two replies, that is either a hack job or the building is 70+ years old.

 

[bradfordwhite]

According to historic images there was nothing on that site before this was built in 2008.

 

[Chetlaham]

[No message]

 

[donprohel]

Not sure...

The socket looks Swiss (Type J: three prongs, polarised) but it might even be the Brasilian/International and proposed European (Type N).

The plug looks rather Italian (Type L, two prongs, not polarised) than the Europlug (Type C, two prongs non polarised).

However, the Italian plug and the Swiss socket are compatible in the sense that the plug is accepted by the socket

 

[Chetlaham]

Good eyes!

 

Maybe its just me, but now that I look at it the top holes seem bigger than the bottom holes which would indicate a dual 10/20 amp Inmetro socket. I think its silly though, just stick with a 16 amp type N. That would be ideal.

 

 

The plug is probably Italian, ungrounded type Cs usually have the skirt around them. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[donprohel]

Have you said "good eyes", chetlaham?

It's not only you: to me too the holes of the top socket look bigger than those of the bottom socket, but I don't have an explanation for that although looking on Wikipedia it seems that the Swiss socket may have smaller holes than the Brazilian/International proposed European socket

 

[Chetlaham]

Inmetro sockets come in two ratings- 10 amp and 20 amp. The 10 amp has smaller holes that the 20 amp:

 

 

 

 

See 3/6 and 4/7 figures and notes: https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/IEC60906-1.html

 

 

My guess is the seller is trying to cover both plug sizes in one device. Such practicality would definitely get it listed on Amazon.

 

 

 

 

[Chetlaham]

My Second Favorite Plug

Is the version of the NEMA 1-15 without the holes and slightly beefier solid blades. Typically reserved for 220-240 volts and used in China, Thailand and other Asian countries.

 

 

 

 

 

Because Asian countries end up with Euro plug appliances from Europe and NEMA 1-15 imitations from China, outlets both grounding and non grounding are designed to take the Type A and C plug and can technically take others like the type F even though type F will be left without its earth connection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thailand takes it a step further and has their own plug type "O" plug which is a hybrid of the US NEMA 5-15 but the the round pins and spacing of the Euro plug.

 

 

 

 

Lots of fun to be had!

 

[davey7]

Since we're talking about European plugs

And sockets, outlets and receptacles, why not go whole hog and talk about wiring and panel boards (bane of my existence right now - insurance industry is forcing replacement of fuses with circuit breakers in a lot of multi-family buildings - that and plumbing fun).

So lets look at Europe, shall we, from a British perspective?

 

[Chetlaham]

Perfect Compliment to Plugs and Sockets

I could write several dissertations on various EU practices; and IEC vs NEC practices. Fascinating stuff that is truly a world all on to its own. 

 

You've got the whole earthing system debate - TN-C-S vs TN-S vs TT vs IT vs PME...

 

230/400Y vs 3 x 230 sans neutral vs split phase.

 

Protecting the neutral via 2 or 4 pole MCB vs straight to the neutral bar. 

 

Radial vs ring wiring

 

Conduit vs twin and earth

 

Switches vs relays

 

Sockets vs hard wiring appliances

 

ect

 

Lots of those differences are covered in your vids. Thank you for posting them. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bradfordwhite]

Obviously, the time will come when converting to a universal world standard will arrive. It will make things much easier all around. Just as there was once different standards here in the U.S. and in Britain and things were made universal per country.

I wonder what will be settled on.

I hope it's a new standard of lower voltage because many appliances now are made with power adapters to step down the power.

 

[novum]

It’s very unlikely tbh.

They are effectively two universal standards:

230V 50Hz - originating in European electrical systems

120V 60Hz - originating in the U.S.

There a dew odd outlier, notably Japan 100V 50Hz and 60Hz, but most of the world fits into option 1 or 2.

Plugs and sockets in 230V systems aren’t universally harmonised, but CEE 7 (the continental European ‘Schuko’ and French system) is probably the most widespread.

The Chinese type which is also basically compatible with Australia/NZ is probably the second most common type.

The U.K. type used here with 3 rectangular pins and a fused plug.

Probably the old U.K. round pin type used in India and then a raft of 2 pin designs that are semi compatible with CEE 7.

It’s unlikely they’ll ever be fully harmonised as the cost and inconvenience would outweigh any advantage at this point.

 

[mrboilwash]

"Thailand takes it a step further and has their own plug type "O" plug which is a hybrid of the US NEMA 5-15 but the the round pins and spacing of the Euro plug"

Apparently they`ve come a long way since I`ve been there 25 years ago. I remember those hybrid outlets but haven`t seen one with an earth connection.
As for plugs they seemed to have a strong preference for the American type.
No plug at all, just the wires inserted was a common sight too.
Have also seen a vacuum cleaner connected without a plug in a hotel in Italy but only once and I was still a child so it`s a long time ago.

On a side note I`ve always had a fascination for foreign plugs, outlets and light switches too. I must have been the only child in the world who noticed when an American movie had a scene in let`s say in a room in Paris and you still saw American light switches.

 

[adam-aussie-vac]

Reply 80

You haven’t heard about the joys of finding an Australian style socket in multiple different countries that somehow have the exact same pin spacing requirements and are compatible, in the photos below, these plugs all fit Australian standards, even though they’re made across a wide variety of countries and times, even the vintage Soviet ones, one of them is actually on my vintage 220v Soviet room heater, and yes I did get the flex replaced and everything looked at and bring up to Australian standards, the only thing that it’s missing is a tilt switch, that I’ll probably ask them to see if it’s possible to retrofit, then it will officially be Soviet built Australian standards, anyway I’m getting off tangent here and the last photo is of my vintage porcelain dual voltage socket

 

[novum]

Ireland has a slightly odd history on this. We are probably the only country in Europe to have moved away from ‘Schuko’ the 16 amp plug/socket system, with the sliding ground contacts that’s used in most of Europe.

When we began standardising things in the 1920s there was no real international consensus on anything. Meanwhile the U.K. had a bit of a messy system involving multiple different round pin plugs, both two and 3 pins, all of which were mutually incompatible, as well as various non-standard systems linked to specific manufacturers. There was also no harmonised voltage in the UK at that point, which regional differences between power companies / power boards.

Ireland’s power company therefore adopted 220V 50Hz and Schuko as it had emerged as a fairly cohesive standard being used in a lot of Northern Europe and was marketed by Siemens.

It remained the preferred standard, although various U.K. round pin plugs were also used particularly during and after WWII, but domestically manufactured Schuko was common.

After WWII the UK launched by the current BS1363 and rectangular pin, fused plugs and they were designed with safety features like mandatory shutters, no ambiguity about earthing or polarity and were flush to the wall, which is whereas Schuko required much deeper boxes or was not flush.

That system was also deliberately designed to not be backward compatible with any other known system, thus would force people to upgrade to a new standard and ‘round pin’ became synonymous with obsolete / old fashioned. It also meant that there was no issue with for example grounded plugs being connected without ground.

Those arguments also all applied in Ireland, so we adopted the U.K. system officially and it would go on to completely replace any previous standards, and did so very rapidly.

If we look at it from 2023, it seems daft to have adopted an oddball standard, that was out of line with Europe, but at that time people didn’t have mobile phone chargers, laptop, and you were fairly unlikely to take a vacuum cleaner or the electric kettle on your holidays to France…

The single market was also decades away, so it just didn’t feature in the decision making logic.

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

Judging from the way some of these foreign voltages outlets and whatever plugs look like, I should think or not be surprised in terms of what our US voltage is like, I suppose the US might change its entire system (soerta like going metric) to one of these designs, Canada and Mexico and other territories for that matter...

My own toys that were battery powered, if I wanted to make my own cords from string and plug-prongs made with toothpicks greatly resembled them, and my own cardboard outlets with two long vertical slots could have just had two holed dots anticipating this would be but possibly oncoming trend...

-- Dave

 

[novum]

There wouldn’t be much logic in anywhere with an established system changing to another system. It make some sense for completely outliers, like countries using absolutely unique outlets or voltages other than 120V 60Hz or 230V 50Hz

At the end of the day, an outlet as long as it’s fairly safely designed, is just a very simple 2 or 3 contact connector. They’re not rocket science!

The issue in Europe is one of trying to ensure a single market works. That’s why there’s been harmonisation and standardisation. It would be like if I donno, let’s say 4 of the 50 US states he’s their own plugs and sockets. You can see how that would screw up an otherwise single market for electrical appliances, requiring special versions for day Texas, Michigan, California and Hawaii.