Washing temperature and saving money...

[launderess]

Solution Is Simple

Run a "boil wash" cycle at least once a month.

Here one alternates between Miele descaling product for dishwasher and washing machines (made by Reckitt Benkiser), and adding two pints to a quart of white vinegar.

Since we have very soft water here, and always use a good TOL detergent like Persil, which have limescale preventing agents built in, deposits aren't really a huge issue. Also since one does tend to be rather lavish with phosphates, that helps as well.

Read on a British commercial laundry site that it is absolutely necessary to put front loaders through a boil wash at least once a month, especially if a majority of washing is done in warm to cold water.

The boiling hot water causes the outer tub of the machine to expand (according to the site), and dissloves all the undissloved detergent powder and residues between the tubs, as well as the rest of the muck. It is that muck, especially soils and oils from laundry that are clinging to washer parts, is what mould feeds on.

Remember fats, oils, and lipids are the main part of soiled laundry, aside from stains. Body oils are just like any other oil, it does not mix well with water, can be hard to remove, and tends to clump and or get sticky at cold temperatures. Detergents for cold water washing supposedly get around this by being stronger. The old advice was to add slighly more detergent when laundering with cold or cool water to compensate.

L.

 

[mrboilwash]

If you turn down the temperature from 60°C to 40°C you might save up to 50% electricity. But on the other hand, the average amount of energy used in a European household for washing laundry (not drying) is only as little as about 10% of your electricity bill. Most energy is used for refrigerating and lightning.
If you use powdered detergent with activated bleach for all your washing along with long cycles you still get hygienically somehow acceptable results at 40°C. But most of us use Color Powders or Liquids for the biggest part of their laundry, which don`t have that benefit.
I seriously doubt that washing with cold water is any benefit for the enviroment if one has to double the dose of detergent or even worse if disinfectants are added.
So for me it`s still the hotter the better.

 

[launderess]

Turn Down The Dial To 30C

Think the problem in many parts of Europe is not the cost of electric power per se, but limited generating power and or places to site new plants.

While many places in the UK and Europe have ample coal supplies, coal was phased out for electric power generation in favour of nuclear and natural gas. Well the EU has little to no natural gas resources, and limited petrol, so it has to be imported. IIRC Germany and Italy are building new coal power plants to not only honour pledges by governments to move away from nuclear power, but to become less dependent on imported energy, especially with Russia (a major source of natural gas and oil), is playing games.

While one can only imagine what tap cold water is during winters in say Germany or Sweden, most washers with heaters will heat tap water to at least 85F (cold), that is good enough for most cold water laundry products.

 

[spoodles]

I was all colours at 30C with Persil or Ariel Colour and whites I tend to do at 40C - especially white shirts. Less grubby whites can be done at 30C with say, Persil Bio and I honestly can't tell the difference than if I had washed them at 40C. I used to do whites at 60C - but again found that there wasn't much difference to washing them at 40C.

I tend do at least one 40C wash with Persil Bio every week and I have not yet had any problems with a smelly machine. Once a month or so I will do a 60C wash with Persil Bio in an empty machine just to make sure it's clean!

People seem obsessed with antibacterial stuff these days. I'm sure the amount or type of bacteria on normally dirty clothes is of no harm whatsoever and pretty necessary for people to be exposed to in order to help keep a strong immune system. Unless your clothes are routinely covered in other peoples' or even your own (!) vomit or poo, then I'm sure there's no need to add extra antibacterial ingredients to everyday washes.

 

[electron800]

I use hotter temperatures

But after reading this post it seems that this, for the main part, is unecessary. Until now I wash whites, bedding and towels and 95 or 60 and colours at 40 or 60 but I'm going to stop. I'm going to start washing everything at 40, since no one in my family has problems with dust mite allergies, and once a month I'll do a boilwash with only powder and no clothes to keep the machine fresh.

I'll let you know if things turn out just as clean and fresh

Matt

 

[hoovermatic]

Having turned to 30 about 2 years ago I recently turned back up to 40 due to the smelly washing machine syndrome which I had previously not suffered from. I have very soft water and have always used a lot less detergent with excellent results. Seems that I ought to increase the dose and maybe this will do the trick in keeping the machine smelling cleaner. I do one higher temp wash a month for kitchen whites and table linen so that ought to take care of any residual problem.

 

[7080swashertalk]

I rarely use hot water anymore. Warm or cold. more often warm.
I have a Whirlpool Duet. I had to use a toploader temporarily and you could tell the difference in no time at all.
A Front loader is so much better.

Hot water and Hot drying is hard on fabrics. I use a dryer 1/2 the timea and always the lowest setting.

As for germs and bacteria. Don't fall for the FEAR tactics that have been used to sell products and pump peoples egos in the past.
Germs and bacteria are a part of being a human animal. If you are in denial of that, you have a thought problem. Accept reality.

It is a matter of balancing and healthy levels.
Cooking your clothing for fear of germs or bacteria is just a waste of time and trying to defy reality.

I rarely use bleach. But bleach is supposed to be used in the rinse cycle.

 

[launderess]

What many persons don't understand is the immune system of the human body actually requires exposure to "germs" to be healthy.

Immune response is a learned behaviour whereby the body finds and destroys strange germs,and keeps a record for the next time, this is the whole rationale behind vaccines. If persons, especially children are not exposed to a certian amount of "harmless" germs, their immune systems do not develop properly.

There are more germs growing on everyday items one comes into contact with from the door knob to the seat on public transportation to the counter at a bank, than would ever be found in clean laundry. So go ahead, get dirty and stop worrying about sanitising every single surface one is exposed.

 

[rolls_rapide]

There is an anti-bacterial agent in some detergents...

...and that is oxygen-based bleach, such as sodium percarbonate, or the older sodium perborate. The problem is that many people think that all detergents are the same; they're not.

Liquid detergents, and 'Colour-safe' powders do not have the bleach added.

I have used umpteen detergents over the years, at various temperatures, and to tell you the truth, the powders with oxygen bleach clean far better, eliminate body odour in garments more effectively, and keep the machine smelling fresh. But only at 40,50 and 60C.

Thirty degrees Celsius I have tried, and found it to be useless at eliminating B.O.

 

[kirk280980]

Normally I stick to 60*C for whites and 40*C for colours, but will occasionally increase or decrease the temperature as I feel appropriate. There are no hard and fast rules, and much of it depends on the soil level and fabric content of the load. Some things cannot take higher temps, in which case I increase the wash time to compensate.

The mop heads, microfibre cloths and terry towels I use for work all get prewashed and boiled, however. To use a cloth in someone's home that had only been given a quick warm wash, after previously being dragged across someone else's toilet seat, just isn't on. Wouldn't want that done to me!

Launderess, I wish more people shared your common sense approach to germophobia. Most of my clients have sink cupboards full of anti-bacterial crap, which gets used once or twice and is then pushed aside to make room for the next heavily advertised product that comes along. Really all that's needed is a good old-fashioned hot soapy water scrub, from which good hygiene follows on as a natural consequence. Spraying sanitiser on top of dirt may make people feel good, but it's not a substitute for thorough cleaning.

 

[sudsman]

Launderess

What you said about some exposure is so true.. That is why hospital laundry and houskeeping personnel rarely are ill! I had many at the old hospital that had been there 25 and 30 years and NEVER was out sick. Housekeeping had 4 that retired with 45 and 50 years and had NEVER missed a day.

 

[launderess]

It is very interesting that Americans have by and large this germ thing, yet according to most recent statistics, they have one of the lowest rates of handwashing after using the WC of the Western world.

 

[mrboilwash]

Dirt is good

I believe it is true and proven that the immune system needs exposure to germs to keep on working.
There is even a study indicating children with worms in 3rd world countries not suffering from any allergies.

But for me it doesn`t need to be sour smelly clothes, I have better ways of some exposure to dirt. Remember German detergents don`t contain any disifectants as it might be the case in some cold wash nations. High temperatures are the best way here to get a long lasting sweet smell.

 

[launderess]

German Detergents Do Not Contain Disenfectants?

Oh I don't know about that.

Oxygen bleach and or hydrogen peroxide are considered disenfectants, and in strong enough concentrations give chlorine bleach a run for it's money, and Persil amoung other German detergents are loaded with oxygen bleaches.

Furthermore to that, oxygen bleach combined with bleach activators such as TAED (as Persil) is actually a more powerful disenfectant than oxygen bleach alone. This is where Henkel came to use "hygenic" in it's marketing materials for Persil. Oxygen bleach and TAED form peracids (sp?), which is the same disenfectants brewers use for their vats and such before making beer.

 

[sudsmaster]

It's largely anectdotal, but the word is that sewer workers generally are immune to most common pathogens.

It is a fact, however, that polio was never a problem until public sanitation cleaned up water supplies. Previously, most infants were exposed to polio early on, recovered, and gained lifelong immunity (the disease doesn't devastate an infant the way it does an older child or adult). FDR, who led a life of priviledge and no doubt a squeaky clean water supply, is a prime example.

The ONLY way to disinfect a fabric is to subject it to more than 250F of steam under 15 lbs pressure for more than 15 minutes. That's generally termed "autoclaving" and is the standby for sterilizing surgical tools, sponges, towels, etc. The one exception is the prion - the causative agent for mad cow disease. Since the prion is simply a misfolded protein, it's not a living organism that can be killed by steam heat. In fact, the recommended method for rendering surgical tools prion free is to subject them to a flame - basically turning any lurking prions into charcoal.

So... back to laundry and hot water. I use hot water simply to get laundry cleaner, and remove stubborn stains. This reduces, but cannot completely eliminate, bacteria from the fabrics. Nor is complete elimination of such a necessary end goal for daily activities short of open heart surgery ;-).

 

[launderess]

As any one who as worked in or studied to become a health care professional can tell you, there is sanitation and there is disenfection and or sterilising.

The former simply means reducing pathogens to levels where they are likely not to cause disease, the later two involve making an object totally free of pathogens (or as near to it as one can get).

If one reads directions for EPA certified disenfectants, they most always will advise to clean whatever surface one is trying to disenfect first, then apply a fresh disenfection solution.

As stated above, in hospital, items that are supposed to be "sterlie" are cleaned first, then put through various proccedures to make them so. Autoclaving, gases, disenfectant solutions, etc, all happen after an item has been cleaned. Theory behind all this palaver is any disenfectant would quickly be overwhelmed by large numbers of "germs", so one knocks off as much as one can by cleaning first.

For the above reason it is not possible to rid laundry of all germs simply by laundering with most domestic methods and products. Commercial laundries have various and sundry products available to them, but require knowledge of weight of laundry to water ratios, and ability to control water temperature and in some cases pH levels.

In the old days hospitals and others would simply put "infected" laundry right into a boiling vessel and boil for a period of time before laundering. Problem with this method is it will set protien stains and some other soils.

L.

 

[mrboilwash]

To be more precise, I meant German color safe powders and German liquid detergents don`t contain any nastys like Triclosan to prevent bad odours caused by bacteria growth.
I have already praised the benefits of activated bleach in an earlier post in this thread.

 

[sudsmaster]

Actually the reason for cleaning an item before sterilisation by autoclaving is so that the pressurized steam has a better chance of reaching the surface of the item being sterilised. There is also a definite procedure to be followed for proper autoclaving of various items. Any wrapping must steam permeable - one would not get good results by trying to autoclave a scalpel in a closed baggie, for example. And a bit of tissue clinging to the scalpel might mask that surface from the steam and result in any bacteria lurking there not getting completely inactivated (especially bacterial spores, which are often very resistant to heat).

I'm not aware of any hospital that will OK the use of surgical instruments after only chemical disinfection. I would imagine that it is simply not as effective or trusted as the good old autoclave. There is also the problem of washing away any residual disinfectant - one wouldn't want that stuff in an incision - and then you would need sterile water and a way to apply it so as not to allow bacteria in the air to deposit upon the sterile surface.

Of course an operating room is not 100% sterile, although surgeons and nurses do their best to keep the counts to a minimum.
Some of these principles would be known to those who have done home canning or even sterilised baby bottles via a pressure cooker. An autoclave is nothing more than a horizontal pressure cooker, with elaborate regulation and safety mechanisms and a nice door.

 

[launderess]

SM, not going to argue with you, as you are the "boss", but think we are both saying the same thing.

It would do no good to put soiled instruments into an autoclave, and expect them to come out "clean" and sterile.
As for choice of materials and proceedures, it's been years since one has looked at my bacteriolgy and microbiology books, but remember each had sections on various methods used for making items "sterile".

As for cleaning and seeing to items rendered sterile in hospital, yes items are cleaned first (either by hand or most likely these days in automatic "dishwasher" type machines, then sent off to be autoclaved or whatever method is going to be used for sterlising.

In the OR the entire room is not "sterile", only the sterile field which is basically the OR table, mayo table and area surrounding the patient. Persons entering this area are required to be scrubbed, gowned, masked and "sterile". Once in the area if such persons leave, and or do anything that breaks being sterile, they must remedy the matter before being allowed to return. The scrub nurse attends in the sterlie field, while the circulating nurse is outside the field. If something is required during the operation that is not within the field, it will be fetched by the circulating nurse and given to the scrub nurse (sterile of course).

 

[sudsmaster]

I am not the boss of thee

Nor would I want to be.

I'm not THAT brave ;-)

However, while I've spent very little time in an OR (both as patient and observer) I did spend more than a few years doing sterile cell culture. Back in the 70's I became familiar with HEPA filtered laminar flow hoods long before HEPA became something you could buy for your vacuum cleaner, that were designed to capture every particle and establish a true sterile atmosphere.

One look at the masks that surgeons wear convinced me that even a sterile OR field is not quite the same level of sterility as what a laminar flow HEPA filtered hood could achieve. All sorts of particles can go through those masks, especially when the doctor or nurse talks, not to mention those that escape around the edges, nor the skin that continually flakes off exposed skin no matter what one does.

As you mentioned before, it's a matter of numbers - it takes a certain minimum number of bacteria to establish an infection in an healthy individual. For an immune compromised person that number is probably a lot smaller. Most certainly we've come a long way since surgeons wiped their knives on their trousers and went to work on one patient after another.

And I'm not certain that even a HEPA filtered atmosphere will filter out viruses, at least not the smallest of them.