CR Announces Death of Traditional Toploaders

[dalangdon]

It's interesting that you mention water supplies and government, Laundress - there has been experimentation with privitization of water supplies here in the United States, which I think is a very dangerous trend. Luckily, it hasn't been going over very well.

I think Capitalism is an excellent economic system - the only sustainable system in the long run. But I also believe in a "level playing field" when it comes to basic commodities such as air, water, and power.

Large scale water privitization and industry-inspired allocation schemes could be a nightmare for middle-class and poor citizens.

 

[oxydolfan1]

Yes, I understand this dilemma.

The appliance manufacturers and detergent conglomerates must get to work on resolving these issues at once.

 

[oxydolfan1]

Yes, but do we have capitalism, or a return of the robber barons of the 1900s?

Common-sense regulation should not be a collection of dirty words.

To restore it would be a logical corrective to a system that is drunk with greed and irresponsibility.

 

[tolivac]

Is this new ruling in Jan 2007 going to have an effect on the sale of used TL machines in "Swap Shops" and thrift stores--I can see TL fans hoarding TL machines from these sources and their prices going up.I am presently hanging onto the ones I have.I still don't like the Govt or anyone else dictating what appliances we should buy.Its too bad the Republicans didn't shut that agency down(Dept of Energy?) down.I think it would be best to get the govt out of the laundry room,the yard,bathroom-and other places.We can think and do for ourselves.Let the Marketplace decide on washers or other appliances.I would also think it could be some time before the swap shops and all get used FL machines to sell.and what are folks supposed to do who can't afford the luxiary priced FL machines?For the price some of those newe FL's out there you could buy a complete TL WD set.and then there is some of the service issues with LG equipment.

 

[dalangdon]

Calm down. Take a deep breath ...

This is a "standard" for new production, not a "ruling" on existing ownership. To even think otherwise is paranoia in the extreme.

Just as they haven't outlawed old cars, they won't outlaw old washers. Most people want new. Most people buy new. The new stuff will have the new technology, and that will accomplish the goals for conservation.

If you want to worry about something, worry about privitization of your water supply.

 

[panthera]

Panic!

I haven't seen this much *angst* since the new toilets were introduced.
My paws and whiskers, Janet Reno is not going to come knocking at your door and demand you turn over your TL.
The US pioneered and developed much of the FL technology. Sadly, the patent owners of the first good FLs were the same folks who brought "does not play well with other children" notes home from school in their younger days.
So most American FLs in the early days had to work around the simple, reliable mechanisms. This lead to very many quality problems, high prices, small capacities (that stereotype lives on in the US consumer's mind) and so on.
Now, finally, the FL is coming back home.
Obviously, most of them right now reflect their European/Asian origin - heated water, long wash cycles, high-speed spins.
Give it a few years and they will feel normal.
Look at it like CD players and DVD players. My first CD player cost a fortune and was obviously built for the Japanese market.
My last DVD (five years old) was picked up in the check-out line of the local grocery store...and cost less than the groceries for that week. It "fits" my expectations of where features should be and how they should "feel".
And for pity's sake folks, FLs hold more than only Barbie and Ben's beachwear:
5kg= 11 pounds
5.5= 12.1
6kg= 13.2
6.5kg= 14.3
7kg= 15.4

The time factor seems like the biggest pain in the neck to me - after over 20 years in Germany, I still get impatient with the long cycles). But that is predominately because we use enzymes and "green" detergents.

Anybody who really wants something to worry about should see what happened to the UK after Mad Maggie privatised the water supply. The English have water shortages in some areas.
England?!

 

[exploder321]

Washers

I dunno.. We bought a Whirlpool Top loader (to replace a Roper that was oerfectly good and given away and then promptley dropped off the porch and murderd that afternoon)in July and had it 2 weeks and it broke.. We than swapped and got a Roper Top Loader and it lasted almost 4 months and it did the sme thing the whirlpool did.. So we gave up and bought a front loader. I think that "most" people will switch over to using them now.. My family was a little adverse to the idea, but once the pedastal was added, it made it all ok. It's such a throw away soceity that one can not help but to wonder if a $339 washer will last as long as a $699 washer.. I don't think so.. Just look.. I wash 5 or 6 peoples laundry here weekly and must if that is heavy blue jeans and towls
(i do others laundry, then again i don't mind as it's fun).. I did buy the extended service plan at lowes for $100 for an additonal 4 years..
I do think that most Top loaders will leave. Sears has had soo many on clearnce it was like they where giving them away (A TOL T/L with agitator was going for $399 on clearnce).. We choose a frigidaire unit over a kenmore simoly because we couldn't get one delivered b4 the end of the year (i have a truck, but can't lift or move heavy stuff)Plus it would have cost $1100 w/ pedstal but no warranty vs $900 for the Frigidaire with warranty and pedestal..
I also know sears re did all there top loaders to comply with Fed. Regulations..
Any who
Must go to bed

 

[launderess]

One thing will say is that perhaps the quality of today's top loaders is suffering as applinace makers concentrate on the new "sexy" front loading/"HE" washers.

To build some of the famous "bullet proof" top loader desings of the past (Norge/Montgomery Wards, Maytag, General Electric to name a few), would probably cost more than or at least equal to today's TOL front loaders, with none of the water/energy savings mandated by the government. Those top loaders were built for the duration, but were done so at a time when steel/stainless steel was cheap.

Being as all this may, there are ways to design energy/water efficent top loaders. Appliance makers are not going to do so however unless they feel something is in it for them.

As for front loaders coming "home" to the United States, it is interesting to note that top loading washing machines long exported to places like Israel are showing up in the UK and Europe as well. People with large familes and or large amounts of laundry appreciate top loaders ability to do lots of laundry very quickly.

L.

 

[DADoES]

I am forever not understanding the deal about the washer-buying public and the mass-media saying that frontloaders are "new" to the US market. Far as I know, there have *always* been FLs available since the early Bendix offerings. Perhaps not a common choice, but certainly available.

 

[foraloysius]

I don't understand the ban on toploaders. Overhere in Europe Whirlpool even selss a model with hot wash and warm rinse option. Every washer on the market gets an energy label and most people are buying the most effiecent ones. The label gives ratings for energy efficiency, cleanability and spin efficiency. Ratings are from A-G with A being the best. The most efficient ones even can get an A+ (or even an A++, but I'm not sure about that). So the most efficient machines get an A+/A/A rating. The Whirlpool toploader gets a G/G/D rating. But it's still available. We do have a choice.

 

[oxydolfan1]

People in Europe are far more technologically aware and conscious of the importance of energy and resource conservation than Americans are.

It is considered weak, almost unmanly in certain circles, to appear concerned about environmental considerations (at the same time, many of the same people have no problem surrendering their right to privacy, freedom from wiretapping and torture, fiscal sovereignity, etc., in the name of "patriotism".

There are those, who believe that we will all be "raptured" soon anyway...who should worry about water?

Meanwhile, those of us who do not deny science and are tired of falling behind the rest of the modern world are caught between the political whims of this group, versus extremists who would have you wash your clothing with a glass of water and and a toothbrush, lol!

In Europe, the toploaders available are horizontal-axis and still much more energy-saving than our beloved, yet antiquated versions. The problem is, the companies want theirs both ways and have cheapened the quality of their offerings to a product not worth saving (five minutes' examination of the new Maytag "Legacy" TL's build quality, fit, and finish are enough to convince even the most mechanically-challenged onlooker)...

What Launderess states regarding toploaders in Israel is true. Many families that make aliyah (natives of the diaspora that move to Israel permanently) put a Maytag top-loader and dryer at the top of their list of things to ship over, because they are much faster to operate than the standard, which is a European- or, rarely, an Asian-imported FL with internal heater. Once arrived, the law states than any washer not produced in Israel can be taxed as high as 200%, and the one brand of tax-exempt Israeli washer, the "Crystal", has an expected lifespan of about two years! You get one shot to bring in a certain number of tax-free appliances, and many North American expats do just that, even though bulky TLs are not well-suited to Israeli bathrooms (stackable Maytags are extremely popular). It's not really feasible to wash in cold water over there, due to the hardness of the water, and many Israelis will not give up their "boilwash"....but the American-born are used to the convenience, and will pay a premium for it.

Maytag is the preferred brand by far for washers, because there is an extensive service network (arguably, they will need it). Whirlpool TLs don't have the same sort of support there.

 

[tomturbomatic]

I am not surprised that front loaders are outselling top loaders. So many people go through a phase in their lives where they do laundry in a coin-op laundry. Even if the business has toploaders, the customers often find that the larger FLs get the load just as clean, do it cheaper and with less detergent. When they are in the position of being able to buy a washer and dryer, they have not been able to find a tumble washer at most places. For a while, it was the apartment and condo builders that kept Westinghouse and White-Westinghouse, the only brand of tumbler washer made for home use after Philco disappeared, in business. The only truly low suds detergents were Sears and a few house brands at grocery stores and those were made for the commercial market which is why they were low sudsing. Sears had to keep offering a low sudser because they had a diminishing number of combos still out in the field. If there were no lowsuds detergents, even from Sears, they would have to buy back the combos. Truth be known, they knew their top loaders did better on low suds detergents also. Now, for the first time since the late 1930s, this country is seeing a growing demand for front load washers. What goes around, comes around. If Bendix, Philco and Westinghouse had tried to keep their washers up to date and do things to improve the performance and reliability, they might not have faded away to almost nothing. If frontloaders had a reliability to match Maytags, people would have been buying them. Now, the same can be said of Maytag and other manufacturers that mostly offered top loading agitator washers. The only giant capacity machine Maytag offered was the rebadged Norge. They did not increase the cabinet width of their automatic washers so they were limited to a narrow tub. Maytag had reliability on its side, but lost that with all of the crappy brands they bought and rebadged Maytag. Whirlpool kept selling 1950s technology until the direct drive washers in the 80s. Fortunately, they were smarter than Maytag when it came to investing in other companies and found F&P for alternate toploader technology that works. GE never re-engineered the suspension of their top loaders from their solid tub machines of the 50s. In those, the solid tub sat in the middle of a large outer tub and swung through that space with moderately unbalanced loads. When they introduced the large perforated inner tub, all of that area that used to be dry had to be filled with water, yet for all of those decades, GE did nothing to lessen the amount of space between the outer and inner tubs.

Like all new products, the current front loaders have their faults to be ironed out, especially service networks, but I doubt that we will see large production of them here. The wealth of this nation decided to move manufacturing out of this country. I don't believe that anyone would go to the expense of building a production plant here for another front loader, much as I wish it. Once we led the world in automatic washer invention, innovation and production and now that is changing.

 

[exploder321]

I know that if look and read consumer reports reliablity ratings, you will see that whirlpool/kenpool/maytag have usually had an edge, and ge and frigidaire/white westing house where at the bottom. But as of recent, GE and Frigidaire have picked them selves up quite a bit and roper has done extremly well, and yet maytag/kenpool and whirlpool have hit bottom... This is the current reliablity rating list from CU:
Roper-6%
Frigidaire-8%
GE-9%
Whirlpool-9%
Kenmore-10%
Maytag-12%
Fisher and Paykel-17%
As far as front loaders go, whirlpool/kenpool units seem to be faring just as well as there top load counter parts and frigiaire is doing alot better than they used to be, but maytag is by far the worst, i wouldn't own one for anything, i know several people who've had neptunes and they all broke within 5 years:
WHirlpool 9%
Kenpool 10%
Ge 12%
Frigidaire 13%
Maytag 21%

I originaly switched from a whirlpool t/l to a roper top loader because of this issue, but i think why ours broke was because our lowes is infamous for dropping merchindise (or running into it with fork lifts)
Front loaders in there current state have been around scince 1997 and i feel are here to stay.. So many people who've gotten them really like them.. I do as well.. They cloths come out cleaner, are less shrunk and feel better.. Plus i love the window and the buttons..

 

[oxydolfan1]

"I don't believe that anyone would go to the expens

Hasn't Bosch started producing front-loaders in North Carolina, though?

Supposedly, F&P is manufacturing their innovative designs in the US now as well.

Maybe all is not lost?

Maybe it's come to the point where we have to look to foreign corporations to reestablish our manufacturing base, after the multinationals that have forsaken us, after we built their fortunes for several decades?

 

[rp2813]

CU anymore strikes me as alarmist and operating in a vacuum. I don't pay much attention to them after the bum steer they gave on my belt-eating '97 Amana TL and tinny/flimsy matching dryer. I agree with those who say TL's aren't going to disappear from the market, however I don't see how my next pair won't include a FL washer, probably a large capacity Duet. I prefer the styling of the Frigidaires but the dryer capacity kills that deal. My FL reasoning is simple. I will no longer have to haul my king sized comforters to the laundromat if I go for a large FL instead of a large TL. I don't feel the washplate TL's have proven themselves yet whereas the FL technology has been around for decades.
Re: Lowes wrecking everything they deliver, that notoriety can be shared with Sears also. When they delivered my Amana pair I saw these two thugs actually drop the dryer onto the ground and it has had squeaks and rattles every since the day it was hooked up. And we all know unless you want to expend a lot of energy writing letters and making phone calls, squeaks and rattles don't warrant replacement of the machine. And why bother anyway if the same thugs are going to deliver the new one?

 

[petek]

Took mom to Sears today to pay her cc bill and we took a stroll thru applianceland looking at the new washers and dryers. Her biggest beef about the Duets etc are the excess of buttons and complexity needed to just do a regular wash. Wasn't impressed at all, thought they were ugly but she did like the t/l cabrio with its big tub, still thought it had too many buttons for her.

 

[rp2813]

Pete, I agree with your mom. The Duets are kind of ugly and are way busy with the buttons and coloring on the control panel. I wish the Frigidaires were bigger because I think their styling is in an entirely more sophisticated league and I'd buy those as my next FL set if they were as reliable and as large as the Duets. Maybe by the time I'm ready to buy, the Duets looks will have improved, or better yet, Frigidaire's size and reliability will both have increased.

 

[sudsdudeshane]

I agree... The Whirlpool Duet is an ugly looking machine!!Have a look at the Maytag Epic. It is basically a Kitchen Aid Ensemble remake. Both Kitchen Aid and Maytag are built by Whirlpool..

 

[appnut]

Well, I"m one of those people who cares more about how a machine goes about doing its thing rather than "style". The Frigidaire 7000 ONLY uses its heater on sanitary cycle. Nothing else. What a joke!! At least the ugly duckling sibblings use the heater on more than that, depending up "brand" label. I was in Lowes today and zipping thru appliance dept. Salesguy was showing a white-haired lady dishwashers. She said, I just want a basic dishwasher, nothing fancy, she aws being shown Maytag & GE TTs and Lord knows waht else prior to me wizzing by. I bit my tongue, but I wanted to say, "Lady, there ain't no such thing as a basic dishwasher anymore, especially with what he's gonna be trying to sell ya".

 

[oxydolfan1]

In answer to tolivac's question....there are more vintage washers still around than you realize!

My adopted hometown in suburbia is actually densely populated...small houses, one next to each other, Archie-Bunkeresque....with lots of elderly people, who've been here since the end of WWII. Many have lost their spouses and save EVERYTHING that reminds them of their lives together...including their washing machines! Basement after basement, I've seen old washers dating back to the early fifties, in varying states, being used as wash tables, corners of workbenches, even storage! Many now are moving out or, sadly, moving on....so make sure EVERYONE knows you restore or at least appreciate the "classics"! (I don't restore, but my friend does, and has a storage space in Queens, which has been picked clean, vintage-wise....)

Some of these wonderful folks are tickled pink when they see how much we value what were actually implements of work to them...but valued implements, which far surpassed the drudgery of washboards and tenement sinks of many of their childhoods.

Tell EVERYONE! Do the estate sales! This way, one man's trash really can become your treasure! I have yet to have ONE of these feisty characters demand payment or a cut of the restored machines' value....my friend rarely sells one, and many times, it's to an older person for a few bucks who wants an older type machine back!

If you explain to many of them how much a simple washer's control board or inside lid of an unsalvageable washer can be made into a gorgeous bookend, wall hanging, or light sculpture, and be sold on Lafayette Street, Smith Street, or Bedford Ave. in Willy, they simply don't believe it.

They think we are quite ill...

I love you hardcore collectors....you treasure the past so you trust the present...