HVAC Woes

[mark_wpduet]

so a few weeks ago, we were in our garage and noticed water coming from a white PVC pip from the wall. Water never came out of that before. I got into the attic and noticed water in a big black plastic drain pan that the air handler sits in. So I guess if water gets in that pain, they have it drain through a pipe from a pan into the garage to alert user that something isn't right with HVAC as there should be no wanter in the pan.

So I called a company to come out (a reputable company). First guy unclogged the drain line......and left. This was during a time that it was not really warm out enough for the AC to run a lot. Shortly after he left, it got really cool for more than a week. It's not necessarily hot now, but I'll bump the AC on to get out the humidity. Since we keep our T stat on 70, it runs a bit even if it's 75 outside. We noticed water again, so a second HVAC tech came out (same company) this time no charge. He checked and vacuumed out the drain pan inside the air handler, took all the water out of the overflow drain pan. Both HVAC techs were super nice and didn't seem incompentent at all.

Now that it's humid and warm, we've been running the AC and the pan is full of water AGAIN! Dripping out into the garage. The AC works beautifully keeping us nice and cool, but this water thing is a mystery. He said he checked for cracks in the drain pan and didn't see any. Now that I call back, they said they would call back to schedule to fix since they are getting a lot of no cool calls and since we have AC and it's draining in garage that it's not considered emergency.

I wonder why the hell they can't find the clog or the problem?

 

[DADoES]

 
They need to trace-out and examine the full path of the regular drain if that hasn't already been done.

 

[bradfordwhite]

More than once I've found "gunk" in the "A" frame drain pan drain line connector. The gunk builds up and the "A" frame pan over flows into your air handler or furnace and then, into your safety back-up catch pan.

In my case the air handler was on a cement floor and there was no pan so it ran onto the floor and made a mess.

Now you or someone just needs to trace the "A" frame drain

It's a reasonably easy and cheap fix. Be grateful you've got conditioned air.

 

[DADoES]

 
And be happy your overflow drain works.  Mine didn't, dripped through the ceiling.

 

[bradfordwhite]

Also, depending on how old your system is, you may have a metal "A" frame pan and it may have developed a rust through spot or some other leak that would need to be fixed.

Again, it shouldn't be too difficult or expensive.

 

[circlew]

Had this problem

and it caused a disaster. The first time there was no auxiliary drain pan, so water leaked from attic through ceiling in bedroom & hall and down inside walls. Primary pan replaced, and auxiliary pan installed. Worked OK for remainder of that year. Next year had water leaking out of living room ceiling, and down wall. This was the day of my mom's funeral, and early in May. My sister had turned the AC on for the first time that year. I went to the attic the next day, and found soggy cellulose insulation. The next day, after the guests had all left, I went to the attic with garbage bags & a coal shovel. I had to remove wet insulation in an area about 8' x 14' - not fun on a hot day. After insulation was removed, I saw the drain pipe (PVC) from the primary pan wasn't supported properly, and had sagged. Since water collected there, it froze in winter, causing pipe to crack and leak. The pipe was replaced, with proper support.

 

Because my mom was Ill when the first leak occurred, we didn't tear into the walls. Since they didn't dry out in a timely manner, mold began growing inside walls and ceiling under insulation. The air handler and ductwork also became contaminated with mold. Heat was hot water, so no issue in Winter, but I started feeling bad the next Spring when AC was on. Didn't figure that out until a couple years after, when I got a really bad fungal sinus infection. I turned AC off, and started getting better. Never used it again, and a friend and I tore the AC system out, including all ducts. They were the flex type, and couldn't be cleaned. The insides of the equipment and ducts looked like they'd been spray painted black!

 

Since I still didn't feel great, I decided to have mold testing done. They found aspergillus, penicillium, and a small amount of stachybotrys. I had to have a remediation company come in and tear out the walls and ceilings in one bedroom, hall, and part of living room. All framing in affected area had to be scrubbed with disinfectant. This required I move out, and cost almost $10,000. I had to vac and wipe down all my wood furniture, throw out or strip coverings and padding from  all upholstered items, and wash all dishes and everything else before moving them. Lots of work to say the least. I decided to do a full renovation, which still isn't complete, but at least the house is free of mold and I'm living here.

 

You're so fortunate there was the auxiliary drain pan in place.

 

 

 

 

 

[mark_wpduet]

sounds like a nightmare

with mine, I keep going up to the attic every few hours because the AC is running, just to check the level of water in the pan. It's staying about the same..with a fast drip in the garage...I guess I'm paranoid that whatever water is going to overcome the speed of draining into the garage.

Here's a pic of my air handler. I tried to post a minute ago and it didn't show up. So I'll repost. It's a Trane all-electric heat pump XR11 from 2004

 

[sudsmaster]

I'm not 100% sure, but isn't one of the objectives of AC to reduce indoor humidity? And doesn't that moisture have to go somewhere? Yes, most of it probably gets shoved outside through the exhaust vent along with hot indoor air... but if I'm not mistaken, even a window AC unit needs a way to get rid of moisture that isn't completely sent out through the exhaust...

 

[tomturbomatic]

I highly recommend the pan tablets that have copper sulfate in them which keep gunk, whether algal or fungal, from growing and clogging tubes/channels whether you are dealing with a central system or window units. The clogging of drains in window units did not used to be such a factor when actual copper tubes were used, but now that drain channels are little, sealed 1/16 inch passages in the Styrofoam combination base pan/frame/sub structure of the POS unit, clogging occurs, even in the first year.

 

[DADoES]

 
Rich, yes of course, air conditioning removes humidity.  It normally drains away somewhere unseen into the household plumbing (leastwise that's the method 'round here).  The air handler / cooling coil sits in a secondary overflow pan in case the primary drain clogs and condensate overflows out of the air handler.  The secondary pan is purposely plumbed to drain somewhere within sight of the homeowner as a signal that there's a problem with the primary.  The secondary drain pan should be fitted with a float that shuts the system off if its drain line is clogged.

 

[warmsecondrinse]

"I highly recommend the pan tablets that have copper sulfate in them which keep gunk, whether algal or fungal, from growing and clogging tubes/channels whether you are dealing with a central system or window units."

The building provides one for each of the American Standard heat/cool one-pipe air handlers. However, I've noticed that the drain pans are slightly warped (prob original from 1965) so water tends to pool a bit. I bought a few of my own to put in the drain pan. Which reminds me I probably should order some. They don't last more than one cooling season, do they?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[bradfordwhite]

That looks like a nice set up.  A little tight with the trusses, but you have a floor to work on thats good.

 

That white pipe is what is supposed to be taking away the condensate that's leaking somewhere.  You need to make sure the line is clear and woull be a good idea to find out WHERE is ends up, FYI.   Does it end up in a utility sink, outside, connected to a drainline somewhere?

 

The heavy ink on the air handler is the approx. "A" frame shape and location inside the handler. 

Gaining access by removing a panel or panels would be necessary to see where that white pipe connects and to see what may be blocking the line inside the "A" frame drain pan.

 

Because there is a lot of air flow through these and because there is dust and lint in our air, the lint can attach to the moist surfaces and then accumulate in the pan.  

 

 

 

[mark_wpduet]

Wow thanks

The condensate drains outside......the PVC pipe sticks out the side of the house. One thing I should mention.....both times they were here, it was too cold for the AC to even be running. Hopefully when they come this time, it will be running so they can actually try to figure out where the clog is. Being up in that attic is freaky. It's hotter than hell and almost to the point where I feel claustrophobic. It's not an elaborate setup really. Just a single story 1375 sq ft house.

Anyway, it's crazy to me how the PVC pipes almost look level. When I look at them I wonder how the hell the water goes from the air handler to the outside with pipes that basically look level. I'm sure they are not level as there must be some slight angle to them.

 

[bradfordwhite]

You're correct about the level pipes.  They shouldn't be level.  They should slant down hill from the pan 1/4" per foot.   Level pipes can be a cause of clogs.  

 

You can check those yourself with a simple level.

 

And check to see that they aren't at any point slanted the WRONG way.  That's a major issue.

 

[mark_wpduet]

ya

I doubt it's that the pipes are level because for years it drained out fine. It never got clogged from 2004 to 2020. They just look level. There MUST be a slight unnoticeable slant to them.

 

[sudsmaster]

Glenn,

Thanks for the explanation.

This location is mild enough that most homes don't have central A/C. Some have window units that they might run on the hottest days. I bought a couple of cheap 5500 BTU window unit 20 years ago, and ran them briefly, but it was sort of a hassle putting them in and then removing them each year. Then I got a free standing "portable" unit (DeLonghi) which exhausts to the outdoors. It does have a little drip tray that I have to monitor and dump when it gets too full. But generally hot days around here are also low humidity, so it's not a big problem, and I haven't had to plumb the thing outside. In fact, I don't think I ran it at all last year. It's not as efficient as the window units because its intake air for the condenser is drawn from indoors. (I didn't spring for the more expensive dual hose version). But it works well enough.

Although it's warmer here than in SF, we still have what Herb Caen used to call "natural air conditioning", which would be usual cool nights even when the days are warm to hot. For about a week or two a year it stops cooling at night though, due to the "offshore breezes" (our version of the Santa Ana winds of LA), and that is when I might fire up the portable.

On most the hot summer days when I don't run the A/C, I just seal up the house in the morning, closing all the windows and doors. The attic is well insulated so that helps a lot. Then at night after the outdoor temp drops lower than the indoor temp, I run more or more window fans to draw cool night air in to cool down the house. If that fails, I'll hook up and run the DeLonghi.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Jim, You are right. One season is the timespan for the tablets.

 

[DADoES]

 
Not unreasonable that a few gallons of condensate can be produced on a hot humid day.

My system is horizontal in the attic.  Can't get to the other side without climbing over it.  The edge of the overflow pan is in the perfect location to be stepped upon when climbing over and/or back.  I stepped on it again when taking these pics this morning, gahhhh.

Pics 2, 3, 4 show the primary drain path, I assume to the vent stack.  I was chastised when I mentioned that drain route on an HVAC forum on point that sewer gas could be pulled in ... I didn't design it that way, and I haven't yet been assfixiated or sickened in 15+ years.

Pic 6 is the overflow outlet.

The primary drain clogged in Sept 2014. The overflow pan was sagging/warped enough that IT overflowed from the corner in back by the primary drain line, and was *NOT* dripping from the outlet.

I adjusted the pan after the incident. The primary drain clogged again couple years ago but the secondary worked, I saw it dripping outside. I see from the Pic 1 that the pan is still sagging a bit on the left side ... must further adjust it.

Pic 8 the ceiling wasn't fully dry after the leak.  It's less noticeable now.

 

[eronie]

Reply #11 goes outside? Is water coming out of it? If not the p trap is pluged with dirt. Use a shop vac to suck it out, very common. Should have been the first thing the service Guy did very easy he probably didnt have a vacuum. Try it yourself. Good luck.