Spider Corrosion, And Foul Odors, In Front Load Washers

[limey]

Seal And Bearing Failure

To hoover1100
Whilst I am not familiar with machines in the UK, other than as detailed above, and I do not think that really counts for very much. I would query the statement that it is the seal failure causing the bearing failure, I believe it is the other way round, at least most of the time.
Please see the third paragraph of my post above to combo52 for my reasoning. I do not think it is necessary to repeat it all again.
With respect to the ‘Oxi’ products please see my sixth paragraph above.
Regards

 

[cfz2882]

frigilux bearing situation

when i did the bearing job on my 1998 frigilux,i looked it over
very carefully to try to determine the bearing failure as the
bearings were decent size(6306 and 6307)and should easily last
the life of the washer(some small cars have smaller bearings
for the wheels)From what i could determine,there was a design
error in which the drum shaft bearing surfaces were made
slightly undersize allowing the bearing inner races to "work"
on the shaft,wearing the shaft,shaft gets off center in seal,
allowing a gap between shaft and seal lip,letting water in to
ruin the bearings...
There are several things electrolux could have done to prevent
this premature bearing failure with these machines...
BTW you do not need to change the rear tub to replace bearings
on these and the bearings and seal are just standard industrial
parts and readily avalible.

 

[passatdoc]

I'd certainly pay to replace bearings, as long as the spider was ok. Given that I am forced into using a stacked configuration (space where washer should sit is blocked by a concrete-filled steel pipe called a bollard, required by city building code to protect appliances from a runaway car), buying a new washer also may mean buying a new dryer, unless I buy the same washer or if the stacking kit fits later model Frigidaires. If nothing currently made accepts the existing stack kit, then I'd have to buy a pair, even though the gas dryer works well (undersized at 5.7 cu ft, that's its only fault).

 

[combo52]

BEARING OR SEAL FAILURE

98% of the time the seal is the cause of the bearing failure. This is true of all washers top loading included. The old saying that water is the root of evil in machine things couldn't be more true with washers, dishwashers and ice machines and water heaters for that matter. As the guy in SD said the bearings are strong enough for a front wheel of a car, its not overloading or even the amount of use that leads to most failures. The condition you saw where the shaft had become undersized I think was also caused by moisture in that area. I have also noticed this but when all new parts are used they fit well and thier is little likelihood that the shaft would turn inside the bearing unless the bearing was rusting and starting to turn hard.

 

[limey]

bearings

To cfz2882
Thanks for the input re the bearings.
I once saw a post where the writer claimed that Frigidaire/Electrolux actually put out a bearing/seal kit. Now should this be correct it means Sears are not being quite ‘upfront’ when they say the bearings and seal are not available separately. However I cannot verify this. What I do know is that when the bearings on my Frigidaire built Kenmore failed I source the replacement bearings and seals locally, and I live in rural Newfoundland, for C$33.66 including all taxes a far cry from what Sears wanted for a new back end.
Now as to the size of the bearings, the drum from my Frigidaire is 12 inches deep, front to back. The load put on the inner bearing, the fulcrum, by the out of balance, cantilever load, rotating at about 1,000 rev/min, such as is generated in this type of washer, is enormous. Two, possibly three balls, at any given instance, take the primary resistance to this. The balls only make point contact with the inner and outer races. To my mind it is no wonder they fail early and regularly. I know there are accepted formulae for estimating the anticipated life of bearings but practical experience also has to be taken into account, and at the moment, this appears to be sadly lacking. We can discuss the deformation of the balls and races under overload conditions if you so wish.
Your point about the ‘sloppy’ fit of the shaft in the inner races of the bearings is well taken. In the two machines I have dismantled I noticed the same thing; I would have expected a minor ‘interference’ fit. I have also seen a few posts where similar 'play' has been observed.

 

[surgilator_68]

While this topic does provide many different points of views I certainly can not agree with bleach causing damage. I do agree that bleach CAN cause damage when used improperly for soaking, not rinsed from the machine or in too strong of a concentration.

However the examination of one or two machines is not a true scientific method for making a determination of cause and effect. That would be like saying everyone with a runny nose has a cold because you were talking to one or two people with a runny nose who told you they had a cold. You then go home and look online to find out that cold symptoms include a runny nose, so now everyone with a runny nose has a cold. That is totally ludicrous.

While you may have seen one or two machines exhibit corrosion on a part does not completely negate the hundreds and even thousands of machines that have been rebuilt, restored and repaired by various collectors and professional appliance repair technicians. Nor does it negate the decades of testing by the various manufacturers.

The problem with picking a machine from a scrap pile, from the for sale list or off the side of the road that has bad bearings or a broken spider or a bad mounting hub, etc is that you do not personally know the history of that machine. You do not know how much of what detergent was used, what water temps were used, etc. You can surmise what has caused the symptom or failure only after you have had experience dealing with those issues first hand and knowing where the machine came from and the habits of the previous owner. No, I will not take your word for how your machine was used. You obviously have an agenda and therefore I believe, like most who have an agenda, will omit important facts. That is human nature.

As I said in an earlier post, I have seen far more machines present with aluminum failures that have never seen one drop of bleach. However those machines were also used with the incorrect amount of detergent along with improper water temp. I can only make this statement KNOWING 100% how these machines were used by having a continued relationship with my customer and knowing their habits. After seeing the same thing over and over again, a pattern develops and then one can make the assumption that a particular failure is the result of X. Does that mean that ALL failures of this sort can be attributed to X, no it does not. But when one observes a high rate of failure or a machine exhibits a common problem, history and knowledge will tell you that it is most likely due to X. Is it scientific, no. But I have the experience and knowledge of seeing this problem on various machines of differing age on a regular basis. Therefor I can say beyond a reasonable doubt that is is not caused by B, rather it is caused by X.

Bearings do not simply fail on their own accord. There must be a contributing factor. Not enough lubrication, contamination from water or dirt. I have NEVER seen a bearing fail on it’s own accord. Every single time I have seen a ball bearing fail in a front loader it is due to water entry caused by seal failure. Every single one was used on cold water, was crusted in mineral and mold build up. Not once have I seen one fail for no apparent reason. The same holds true from any top loading machine. Water entry or lack of lubrication.

I do not believe that any manufacturer would put an undersized bearing in their machine. This is not the invention of the wheel. Bearings have been around for a long time in various forms and manufacturers have been testing various methods and products for decades.

You seem to enjoy stirring the pot for your own agenda and have no real, first hand long term experience in the matter. Until you get that, I suggest you stop spewing forth your regurgitated, half baked thoughts and ideas on the matter. It is people like you who really have no knowledge on the subject that give the rest of us and the products a bad name.

 

[limey]

Good News

To rohic
Glad you have all positive stories.
If it works for you, I say keep it going that way; never mind what I or anyone else says.
Good Luck
Regards

 

[limey]

New Washer Not Fitting Old Dryer

To Passatdoc,
I do not know if what you are describing is deliberate ploy by the manufacturers to sell more machines or not, but it certainly seems to be a possibility.
A possible way round it is if:-
1 There is sufficient room in the ‘laundry closet’ or whatever you call the ‘laundry space’.
2 It is not in a space where cosmetics are not important.
3 The Chief Laundress is in agreement.

You could build a shelf/bench to support the dryer; it would of course raise the dryer two or three inches. The dryer does not need such a rigid support as the washer and the increase in width or depth would not be significant provided that there was room.

Fortunately when we built our retirement home we left enough room in the ‘laundry closets’ to be able us to ‘get round’ the appliances for ease of access to faucets, etc. We did not leave sufficient room for a ’side by side’ arrangement.

 

[ronhic]

Limey

The whole purpose of this forum is to share....and to LEARN..

The reason I posted my comment above was as an example of something that is proven to work - here and in Europe.

Nobody is saying you have to do any or all of the suggestions, but it would be a foolish person who comes on here with an issue and then proceeds to be dismissive, argumentative and more than a little trite without at least accepting that there is a great deal of knowledge and general good will being put forward trying to solve, what is afterall, your problem.

 

[limey]

Bearing And Seal Failure

To combo 52
‘98% of the time the seal is the cause of the bearing failure’. Interesting, where does this come from? Who or what organised and/or verified this figure? How was the actual cause of failure determined (this I would really like to know when both are damaged)? In my opinion for this statement to have any credence whatever these details need to be addressed and satisfactory answers provided.
On to the bearings, those fitted to cars may be the same ‘size’ but in my experience they are, at least nowadays, roller bearings, either taper or straight depending on location. The major difference in this arrangement is that the roller can accommodate a much higher load as the area of race in contact with the roller is a ‘line’ but with a ball it is a ‘point’. The second point is that for taper roller bearings they are, up to a certain point ‘adjustable’ in that the clearance between the rollers and the races can be adjusted, this leads to less ‘play’ in the bearing and reduces the ‘spalling effect’ leading to longer bearing life. The fulcrum ball race removed from my machine has eight balls I believe that you will find that the similarly sized roller bearing for cars have a few more rollers.
With respect to the size of the shaft fitted into the bearings I would draw your attention to my first post on this thread and the photograph of the spider. There are a few ‘rust’ marks on it in way of the bearing race’s landing areas but not, in my opinion sufficient to warrant replacing it for that reason. Would you agree? On the second machine, as I have previously indicated, there was no sign of corrosion of the shaft or the bearings but they were still not ‘tight’ to remove. Perhaps this is done for ease of manufacture but I do not know.
Should it not be use or overloading what do you suggest was the reason for the bearing failure on the second machine I took apart as there was no evidence of water ingress into the bearing housing area?

 

[cfz2882]

ball bearings on car wheels

actually a lot of cars have gone back to ball bearings,while
some always have used ball bearings-one small car (2300 LB,
rear wheel drive)that i fixed just had a standard 6306 bearing
on each side and they last good.i say a 6306 and 6307 are more
than up to the job on a frigilux size front load(anyone know
what size bearings are used on other front loads-westinghouse,
miele,etc.)"max"type ball bearings with a higer ball count are
avalible for use in winches,vibrators and other high-load apps.
i suppose it's possible electrolux just used crap bearings in
their washers?

 

[limey]

To surgilator.
As I said to combo52 we both live in free countries and are fortunate enough to be able to express our views even though they, quite obviously, differ.
I am pleased that at least you agree that bleach could cause a problem if it was present in sufficient concentration. Is this correct? If affirmative we then have to look at how that could occur without improper use, is this correct? If affirmative please refer to the penultimate paragraph in my first post, can you understand it? Should you comprehend my theory, what is wrong with it? Should you not be able to understand it please tell me and I will endeavour to explain further.

This may surprise you but I totally agree with your second paragraph. All I have at the moment is very limited personal experience of washing machines, other of course, than using them, quite a bit of research on ‘the web’ and a theory. What I am asking you for is an objective criticism, positive or negative. I do however ask that the criticism be based on undisputable, verifiable facts.

I have to confess that I do not fully understand your third paragraph. How can what I have experienced, and read about, possibly influence what you list? I do not know. I do have to say though that there are hundreds, perhaps even thousands of posting on the web relating to corroded/failed spiders and bearing/seal failures. Are they all true, perhaps not, but I believe, and it is only my opinion, that the vast majority are true. Should you allow that something is causing those spiders to corrode and something is causing the bearings to fail early then we have to ask ourselves what? Here is a point to ponder. All manufacturers’ claim that their machines get the laundry cleaner, than whom, does not really matter to this thought, but would not one way to improve the performance of their machine be to remove more water and hence soil at the end of every phase of the cycle? This would mean that there would be less to contaminate, the next phase. This could easily be accomplished by ‘spinning’ to the maximum speed, now set for the final spin, at the end of each phase. Why do they not do it? Could it be that they do not want to shorten the life of the bearings even more? I do not know, just another theory.

The first part of your fourth paragraph again I cannot see what the point is. Yes I agree that on being presented with a corroded spider of unknown service(s) it would difficult to say very much other than it is corroded. However a diligent researcher would soon discover what could cause the corrosion whereupon said researcher may be able to formulate a possible plausible scenario.

For the second part of your fourth paragraph I do not believe I have said, on this thread, how our machine was used. So there is nothing to believe or disbelieve other than the machine was about 6 years old when it started to give off ‘the smell’ and was approximately 7.5 years old when the bearings failed. Quite bluntly I do not care if you believe that or not, it makes no difference to my theory.

From your fifth paragraph I can see how excess detergent particularly of the powdered form could contribute to corrosion. Proctor and Gamble even state on their own MSDS for one of the powder ‘Tides’ that the pH is 11.0, that is one thousand times more alkaline than the safe level of 8.0 for aluminium. Add to that incomplete dissolving in cool/cold water and, in my opinion, you have a recipe for disaster.

As for bearings failing of their own accord, what about a bearing with a manufacturing defect, as with anything the odd one gets through, or what about one noted to have brinelling damage prior to attempted installation? That damage would not have been there on completion of manufacturing. I have to disagree with you, ball and roller bearings do wear out even when properly installed, not overloaded, properly lubricated, no foreign bodies or liquids allowed to enter and otherwise correctly maintained, they do just wear out. Even automobile manufacturers normally give a service period after which renewal is recommended. What do you think happened to the bearings in the second machine I dismantled?

With respect to your sixth paragraph, you will have your opinion and I will have mine. As to whether it was done deliberately not is another matter. Even the best designers and engineers make mistakes, the really good ones acknowledge them, correct them, and then move on.

 

[limey]

Apology

To rohic
Thank you for your comment. Believe me I am learning.
Please accept my apologies for any insult you may perceive I have given you, I can only say it was not my intention.
Should I have been living in Australia I would, no doubt, have been happy to receive and heed your advice. Heck I did not want these problems.

When I first pulled my machine apart I was not mad to find failed bearings, 7.5 years is not bad, the score on the brass liner from the failed seal, was my fault for not getting off my rear end quick enough. What ‘got me going’ was the policy on spares and then the more I found out about it the more irate I became.

 

[ronhic]

Thanks...

....just remember, the comments are equally as valid about 'smells' regardless of where you live or what brand of machine you have...

 

[limey]

Bearings

To cfz2882
Thank you for the update I had not realised that.
Something is causing these bearings to fail and it is definitely not all seal failures, reference the second machine I dismantled.
The bearings removed from both the subject machines had ‘China’ in raised letters on the shields, just maybe that says enough.
Perhaps a ‘max’ bearing might have been a better choice to accept the out of balance vibrations.
One thing it will be interesting to see how long the new bearings in my machine last.
Thank you again.

 

[jetcone]

Most of the corrosion

I see on that spider in the first instance, most of the corrsion is around the hub area. That would be the highest area of stress. Aluminum like that has small microsized cracks or folds to it. As the spider turns under stress the "corrosive factor" whatever it is can enter the aluminum under the flexations it goes through. Once in there , in the cracks, it will not dry out between loads but being between two aluminum surfaces now could set up a galvanic action locally like a small capacitor.

That I think is why you see the corrision around the hub and not the arms, the stress on the arms maybe low enough that the flex isn't great enough to let the "corrosive factor" in.
That only explains locale not reason for corrosion.

If it was just drops of bleach reaching the spider and drying then the corrosion pattern would be random ALL OVER the aluminum on the spider. Its not.

As to your shaft and its rusting that is water entry pure and simple , water being the only factor needed there. I have not seen the physical layout of this machine nor how the seals actually fit or work but with my experience I would wager one of two things happend 1) the seals were not fit carefully at the factory, or 2) the seals failed due to undue flexing of the shaft or gunk build up against the rubber components. Either way the seals admitted water to shaft and bearings.
Bearings if fit properly and sealed properly have a long life, ie: my 1957 Duomatics are original.

 

[limey]

Bearing And Seal Failures

To Jetcone
Thank you very much for your input.
I had wondered when/if anyone would raise the two points you brought forward in you first paragraph.

‘Stress corrosion’ is. Or was until I retired, I little understood phenomenon. I was very much more involved with steel in that regard, than aluminium. However I understand/understood that the basic principles were the same. An imperfection in the surface, be it mechanically or chemically produced, concentrated the stresses at the notch, (the same as in an Izod impact test). In this area the stresses appear to be further increased in the presence of a corrosive environment. I fully agree with you, the corrosive environment likely will have accelerated the final catastrophic failure of the spiders. I doubt that any more than a very small percentage of spider failures are the result of the spider ‘just falling apart.

On the subject of an internal galvanic cell contributing to the corrosion I would again fully agree with you. The only thing is I do not believe that this corrosion is anywhere near a major contributor to the overall rate of wastage.
I fully expect that you and I will be in for some counter views in this respect, should the previous postings be a fair sample.

I have to agree/disagree with your reasoning in the third paragraph. Should the spattering of drying bleach be random then the corrosion will be random. I agree with you. However the distribution is not random. When the spider is rotating at 1,000 rev/min (I do not know the exact final spin speed of my unit) the linear speed at the periphery of my 22-inch diameter drum is almost 65.5 miles/hour, at the outer edges of the recesses close to the centre of the hub (3.563 inches diameter) is approximately 10.6 miles/hour and at the outer edges of the brass sleeve (1.56 inches diameter and the smallest diameter exposed to the ‘water’ inside the drum) approximately 6.01 miles per hour. I believe these later two are insufficient, given that the outer edges of the recesses undoubted ability to increase the centripetal force exerted by the surface tension of the ‘water’ to stop the ‘water’ in these areas from being thrown out by the centrifugal force thus leaving them towards the centre to evaporate and hence, should the pH rise sufficiently, to cause corrosion.

I partially also agree with your last paragraph. The corrosion on my spider is ‘rust’ no argument, I also agree it was caused by water; and that the ‘water’ entered via the seal is I believe undisputable. The point on which would appear to disagree is why it ‘got by’ the seal. Incorrect initial fitting of the seal, possible but I feel unlikely; it had been there 7.5 years. Should it have been fitted incorrectly I would have expected it to fail sooner. I also have to acknowledge that your second point, shaft flexing of ‘gunk build up’ are possible. I would also add one point you have omitted, that is that the bearings failed allowing the shaft to rotate out of line with the centre of the bearing thus destroying them. One further point with regard to excessive shaft flexing, what caused the excessive shaft flexing? Perhaps an out of balance load?

I agree with you these bearings should last a lot longer if they are correctly sized, of suitable load bearing capacity for all conditions likely to be experienced in service, kept in a ‘clean’ environment and correctly lubricated.

Is your Duomatic a FL or TL I am not familiar with it.

Again thank you for your input and I would appreciate your comments on the above.
Regards

 

[limey]

Spider Corrosion

The following message has been sent to ‘combo52’ on thread number 29564 ‘Uh-Oh The Dreaded Bearing Roar Has Commenced’. I reproduce it on this thread as I believe it is also relevant here.

"Thank you for your input.
I found an owners manual for a Bosch Axxis on the web. At the beginning of that manual it stated that the use of chlorine bleach could result in the production of poisonous gas, I presume they mean chlorine. A nephew of mine with a Masters degree in chemistry tells me that is what is given off when sodium hypochlorite (bleach) reacts with aluminium. Further into the manual is what 'sudsman' has quoted verbatim. Makes sense to me.
Now should what you say about the latest Bosch machines having a bleach dispenser be true, and I have no reason to disbelieve you, it begs the questions, what have Bosch done to remove the potential for poisonous gas production, and what components have they altered so that they are no longer corroded by chlorine bleach?
I have sent an email to Bosch asking what components are corroded by chlorine bleach as per their manual, and have asked them what material is used for the spider in their machines? Should I receive a response I will post it.
Regards"

 

[combo52]

BOSCH WASHERS AND BLEACH

Bosch is talking about using bleach and heating the water to 200F. The LCB is not used in sufficient concentration to cause corrosion of the aluminum spider let alone causing it to put off poison gases. Talk about reading something wrong way.

 

[limey]

Bosch Washer Manuals

To combo52
I have downloaded manuals for Bosch washers WLF 2090 and WLF 2050 I would suggest that you do the same, or at least peruse them ‘on the web’.
For the WLF 2090 machine the manual contains the following:-
On page 5 under the Heading ‘IMPORTANT SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS’ (which is on page 4), “14. Do not use bleach. Hazardous fumes can form.” There is nothing else under item 14.
On page 13 under the Heading ‘Laundry Detergent and Additives’, as a stand alone statement ‘ DO NOT use chlorine bleach in this washing machine.’
On page 17 under the heading ‘Bleaching’ the single statement ‘WARNING DO NOT use chlorine bleach in this washing machine.’
Also on page 17 under the heading ‘Decolorizing’ the single statement ‘CAUTION Decolorants may contain sulphur or chlorine. These substances can cause parts of the washing machine to corrode. Do not decolorize items in the washing machine.’

Now you can read whatever wish into those statements. To me they are perfectly clear except for the fact that they do not specify what components could be corroded. As I have stated in post 449983 I have posed this question to Bosch. Should I receive a response I will post it no matter what it says!

I do have one apology to make. In post 449983 I used the term ‘poisonous gas’ the manuals actually use the term ‘hazardous fumes’. I therefore apologise for any confusion, misunderstanding or inconvenience this may of caused.

The manual for the WLF 2050 contains the same statements except in slightly different locations.