Spider Corrosion, And Foul Odors, In Front Load Washers

[favorit]

Hi David/Limey,

I actually can't get one thing ..... rinses dilute the chemicals, don' t they ?? So the concentration of the chemicals in the last rinse is trascurable

You say more or less "when water evaporates chemical concentration increases, so PH fastly increases over 8 ..."

If this statement were so true ... everytime we use a fork, a knife, a spoon, a glass in whatever restaurant our mouth would get burned by caustic soda residues

Dishwashing detergent in commercial dishwashers is plain caustic soda.

According to your theory, when the racks/belts exit the dishwashers and loads suddenly flashdry because of the hi temp rinse the surface of the clean items would be covered with those particles of caustic soda that weren't neutralized by the rinse aid.
But as we know, millions of people all over the world eat and drink with utensiles washed with caustic soda, yet they survive .........

Maybe is that theory "of the dried spider" a bit weak ??

No offence, but you have to be aware that here you are also dealing with some posters who have to do with washers because of their jobs, so they have a 360° point of view/experience with washers. This is totally different and more complete of the point of view we, simple collectors or "washoolics", have.

 

[limey]

Spider Corrosion

To favorit.

Thank you for your thoughts and comments.

Let us take this one step at a time.

Yes rinses do dilute chemicals the more times you ‘rinse’ the weaker the concentration of remaining chemicals become: except of course for the chemicals and suspended solids in the ‘tap’ water used for ‘rinsing’, until it approaches that of the ‘tap’ water itself, should sufficient ‘rinses’ take place.

What do you understand ‘trascurable’ to mean? Should it be ‘very small’ or ‘minor’ I would agree. Should it be ‘negligible’ or ‘unimportant’ I would not agree.

One very significant difference between a dishwasher and a laundry washer is the quantity of ‘water’ left in the machine at the end of each phase of the cycle. Unless only a very small load of laundry is dealt with, the laundry washer will have considerably more water owing to the quantity absorbed by the clothes, hence more contaminants.

So far I have been unable to verify your statement that commercial dishwashing detergent is plain caustic soda. In fact, so far, I have not found it listed as an ingredient in any of those I have checked. Just so that we fully understand each other, to me caustic soda is sodium hydroxide (NaOH). Sodium hydroxide, is extremely corrosive to, inter alia, aluminium and, as you observe, human flesh.

The above not withstanding, let us continue.
The main purpose, as far as I am aware, of the rinse agent, is to reduce/eliminate the ‘spotting’, ‘water marks’ on items from a dishwasher and to do this it alters the surface tension of the ‘water’ so that it ‘slides’ off the dishes/cutlery and does not form drops. This means that very small amounts of the contaminants remain on the dishes/cutlery; will some of these be ingested? I believe so, and so do some ‘green’ sites. The quantities will be that small that damage will not be immediate but cumulative, in other words we are poisoning ourselves!

Having said the above almost any commercial ‘eatery’ would examine eating equipment prior to ‘putting it out’ as would any ‘host/hostess’ or ‘househusband/housewife’, and any with ‘spots’ or ‘watermarks’ would be wiped ‘clean’ but would still have very, very, small quantities of chemicals and soil left on them.

As far as I am concerned none of the above alters my view, in any way, regarding possible causes of front loader spider corrosion.

One point that does need to be remembered is that these spiders are continuing to fail catastrophically and something is causing that corrosion and hence failure. Nothing appears to have been done to stop these failures.

 

[sudsman]

I am concerned none of the above alters my view

And that is ALL it is your view!

 

[bobofhollywood]

not all washers die

I currently have 5 front loading washers installed in my laundry studio. Not one has an odor issue and I use bleach in them all on occasion. I have been using front loaders now for over 20 years and never once had a bearing go bad. Here is what I do - never close the door unless the washer is being used. As a collector restorer I have seen machines that have run many decades and never failed. Here's a bigger problem. No matter what you do nobody lives forever. Everybody eventually dies. .guaranteed. I have been asking the manufacturer about it for years and nothing is being done. Still the fact remains - nobody lives forever. I THINK this thread has really out lived its usefulness. Some washers may have failed in the time it took for this thread to develop but the vast majority of them did not. For me this is a complete non issue. Just leave your door open limey. Your issue is not as important as you think.

 

[MrX]

I've never had a bad smell problem with any of my machines over the years. However, my grandmother's machines have always had odour issues and mildew.

It comes down to one simple difference : temperature!

We always was at 40C or 60C for towels/sheets etc.

My grandmother *always* washes on Cold (or as close to cold as the machine will allow).

The end result is that her machine's invariably a mess, and ours is perfect.

She saves on energy but goes through about twice as many washing machines as we do in the same number of years!

I have also found that use of non-enzyme detergents will cause similar problems. Good biological (enzyme-rich) detergents will dissolve fungus, mould etc during the wash. I'm not sure that non-bio (no enzyme) detergents will be as effective as they are not set up to breakdown proteins etc.

Using very short washes doesn't help either!

 

[MrX]

One more tip!

If you really do want to get rid of the smell out of a gunked-up front loader (this may also work for gunked up top loaders) do the following:

1) Descale the machine using a commercial washing machine descaler. These are available from supermarkets or appliance specialists (and online).

2) Using raw disinfectant liquid (as described below) and wearing rubber gloves - wipe down the door seal and and fully clean out the dispensor drawer. You might consider spraying the inside of the dispenser drawer with a solution of disinfectant.

3) Run a deep wash at at least 60C, but preferably 90C using a large dose of liquid disinfect that is suitable for use on laundry. E.g. in the UK and Ireland - Dettol Liquid disinfectant (not the old-fashoned version, but the clear / scented versions). Typically, you will need a really large dose e.g. half a bottle of the stuff to have any impact.

4) Before the wash part of the cycle completes, stop/pause the machine and allow the disinfectant to work for a while.

Switch machine back on and allow cycle to complete as normal.

6) Once this is finished, run a hot wash with a large dose of a good quality powder laundry detergent (not the colour-kind variety) i.e. Persil Bio, Ariel Bio, Tide with Bleach etc.

When done, your machine should no longer smell and the mildew problem should be resolved.

In future, ensure that you do a hot 60C cycle about once a week or at least every two weeks. Its a good way of maintaining your machine and it's also an excellent way of keeping your towels clean

 

[bobofhollywood]

leave the door open

It comes down to leave the door open. Either you will or you won't.

 

[alr2903]

Bobofhollywood, nice to see you posting. I was a brand new member and you posted the multi color speed queen coin ops for me. I never forget a kindness. Good to see ya mister. arthur

 

[sudsman]

This thread has outlived its usefulness

THATS FOR SURE!!!

 

[iheartmaytag]

One last observation

I wonder if it's all about moderation? Bleach in itself is not bad, just don't pour too much of a good thing in at a time. Same with detergents.

What was suggested to me by a very knowledgeable woman at LOWE'S. Alternate your cleaning aids. Each can cause a slight build up on their own that is counteracted by another. Too much powder detergent in cooler water can cause a cement like build in the outer tub. Too much liquid detergent can cause a build up of greasy film. Too much softner can cause Gunk.

If you alternate they counteract and complement each other's traits. I usually wash bedding, towels, jeans with Powder Tide HE and a Hot wash. Perm Press is usually Tide Total Care (Liquid) in Warm or cold. Delicates are done with Woolite HE (Liquid) cold water. I rarely, but do use softner. Most of my bleaching is with Oxi-clean now, but I do have a bleach dispenser in my machine and have usd LCB. It holds about 1/4 cup of bleach, my main complaint and the reason I avoid bleach in my FL machine is I don't like the way it dumps the bleach in a plume right in the middle of the clothes.

[this post was last edited: 8/20/2010-14:51]

 

[bobofhollywood]

using various formulas

I agree with and practice that myself. Using differing products is a good practice. Also I never use bleach straight out of the bottle - dilute it first in a measuring cup . But no matter what ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS leave the door and dispenser drawers open when you are not using your washers . It's really that simple.

 

[bobofhollywood]

doors and drawers open

and my other three shown at parade rest with doors and drawers open. . .

 

[sudsman]

In 40 years of hospital laundry

EVERY manual on every washer I have ever had ALL tells to leave the doors open anytime the machine is NOT in use.Not only for the dry out phase but to keep gaskets from deforming,and will make them last 2 or 3x as long.

 

[combo52]

RESIDUE BUILD UP INSIDE WASHERS

Thats a good suggestion Wichita person [ you should fill out your profile ] to use different products for different loads. One thing I have noticed in my vast experience of working with washing machines is that many consumers have terrible build ups of various kinds in thier machines. This is because they get stuck in various bad habits with the use of laundry aids temperatures and settings on the machine. And of all the coin operaterated machines I have worked on I have never seen any type of build up in them. I think this gives creditability to the idea that using different laundry products etc is a good idea for everyone. I would also say that far more harm is caused by using too little of most laundry aids than using too much.

 

[mark_wpduet]

I honestly don't think I could stand not using LCB and hot water......Even a very little of it goes a LONG way.......Like a tablespoon in a spray bottle with the rest distilled water. I think it really disinfects the inside of the washer, even in its very diluted state (those dispensers hold very little bleach).....So that and leaving the door cracked has kept my machine like new. The first year I had it I had the control board replaced and the technician said that most of the front load washers he works on STINKS......He said mine didn't at all. He was kind of surprised he said. He asked me what I did....I said I just leave the door cracked.

 

[bensch]

spider corrosion

I am not a pro, just a homeowner; pretty handy, too. Fortunately, last year when my 8 year old Frigidaire front load washer started making bad noises, I had just spoken to a friend who had previously done the repair. He said that if it was corroded, I would have to buy a new drum/spider combo, because they don't sell just the spider. And when I did, I should go to Home Depot and get some Rustoleum Cold Galvanizing Paint. It is basically pure zinc in a vehicle; I sprayed multiple coats on the top of the spider, and as much as I could get between the spider and the stainless drum, and hoped that all will be well for another 8 years. Last month the bearings broke. I am in the process of changing them with bearings sold by FrontLoadBearings.com, that cost $79 per set, or about 5x what the OEM bearings Frigidaire (and probably everyone else) specifies. Remember, with appliances, labor is the greatest cost, not the stuff inside. So, use the best stuff you can, and do it once. Wish someone would have told me about the bearings in the first place...

 

[kb0nes]

I'd really take some convincing to believe that the aftermarket bearings sold by frontloadbearings.com are in any way better then the OEM's are. The cost of the bearings means nothing since by the time they get to you 75% of the cost is all markup anyhow. I would love to see the markings on the shields of both the OEM bearings as well as the aftermarket ones, that would be far more telling of product quality.

Still the bearings didn't fail due to their quality (or lack thereof) or because they weren't big enough etc. In almost all cases the bearings fail when they start to take in water past the seal. If there was anything different that could be done to make the bearings run longer it would be from improving the life of that seal. When you had the machine apart to replace the spider, did you replace the seal at that time too?

In any case, welcome to the group Ben. I hope the 2nd attempt at the repair gives you at least 8 years more life out of your machine!

 

[whirlcool]

But then again you have

people like my nutty sister who has a Kenmore HE2t Plus that she has had for 11 years. She uses liquid Tide by the cupful, not cap-full. She never leaves the door open between washes (the cats will use it as a litter box), and also uses Downy by the cupful too. She also stuffs it so full you couldn't fit in even another handkerchief inside of it. Most of her washing is cold/cold.

Earlier this year she sent me a T-shirt from a concert she attended. She sent it with a note that she washed it for me before sending it. It reeked so bad of Downy the whole house smelled like it. I had to rewash it immediately to get rid of the smell. BTW, I wear a M to L. The size she sent was a XXX Large. I told her she sent the wrong size. She said "Well isn't that your size?" Crazy bitch.

She has never had a problem with odors, mold and even no mechanical problems. Go figure.

This leads me to believe that a lot of the problems with mold may be due to the environment where the machine is located. Maybe something environmental. Because we also have people that do everything exactly right and yet they still get mold. It's just an idea.

 

[passatdoc]

close to nine years on a Frig 2140, properly maintained

My 2006 Frigidaire 2140 FL washer is now in the custody of my neighbor. He inherited the 2006 pair when I bought a new pair of Electrolux 60 series. In March, the 2140 will be nine years old. Spins normally, no bearing-trouble whine or noise. Of course, I babied it over the years. No fabric softener, no bleach, door always open when not in use, dispenser always emptied (of water) and allowed to dry, quarterly descaling with citric acid powder.

It'll be interesting to see how long it lasts, since the neighbor is following my care tips. Since he is between jobs, and because his Kenmore TL all but died (20+ years old), any amount of use he gets from my 2140 is a bonus, since he avoided having to buy a washer during a low-income period.

Board member <span style="text-decoration: underline;">golittlesport </span> gave an older Frig FL (the small door model, not a square door model 2140/2940) to his son when he bought a 2940 for himself. He posted recently that the Frig passed to his son finally died after about fifteen-sixteen years of service between his household and his son's. I believe his 2940, purchased about the same time I bought my 2140, is still in use without mechanical issues. 

 

[logixx]

No-Mold HE2T

The inside of that Kenmore is probably too toxic for mold to grow in.

 

[combo52]

No Mold In A FL Washer

Hi Allen, your sister backs my experience very well, I have often stated that it is almost impossible to use too much detergent, it is too little detergent that causes 90% of detergent related washer problems and failures.

I also have a customer that uses only cold water and liquid detergents in her KA [ Duet Style FL Washer ]and the washer smells great and has no sign of any mold or build-ups what so ever, but she told me she always fills the detergent bottle cap completely at a minimum.

 

[mrb627]

Agree

I agree with combo. Liquid detergent doesn't grow mold in the bottle. It is too little detergent, aka micro-dosing, that causes the problem.

Malcolm

 

[mark_wpduet]

Whirlcool

LOL! LOL! LOL!

Your last post cracked me up.....

This thread is so old......but I think it is a number of factors.....My FL washer is in a climate controlled area.......but I also am the ONLY one that uses it. I'm careful about doing the right things based on what I've learned online over the years.....Using bleach/hot water with whites.....warm/hot water with colors, not over-dosing, not under-dosing, leaving the door cracked and detergent drawer cracked when not in use, and not using too much fabric softener. I dilute a small amount of fab sftner with distilled vinegar. This April my Duet will be 10 yrs old. It would be interesting the see what the spider looks like on it...But there is ZERO smell in my washer, just that clean smell with a faint hint of detergent that you expect a washer to smell like inside.

Personally, I think it's over use or under use of detergent, cold water, too much fab sfner and over loading the machine, along with the area it's located that causes it.

 

[whirlcool]

My sister's Kenmore is located in a dedicated laundry room right next to her kitchen on the main level of the house and not in the basement. If that helps anyone.

When front loaders first came out there was all this hype about using only a teaspoon or so of HE detergent in them. A lot of people read that. I now imagine that is not really true. A lot of people thought that the reason detergent mfrs said use one capful was to sell more detergent.

But how do you get the resulting suds out of the clothing? I have seen my sister take clothes out of the washer with suds flying through the air as she removes them from the washer. The whole time her washer is running you never see the clothes through the glass door, only suds, even during the rinse cycle.

 

[combo52]

Suds In Front Load Washers

Hi Allen, the suds vanish in the last rinse when the FS goes in, But don't get me wrong I am not endorsing your sisters way of washing clothing as it is far cheaper to use hot water and less detergent [ detergent is the most expensive cost of running a washer ] but her system has kept the washer mold free, I just wouldn't want to wear socks etc washed by her, LOL.

 

[passatdoc]

should have mentioned

My FL washer (the previous 2140 and the new Electrolux 60) are NOT in a climate controlled area. It's a nonheated/non-A/C garage (well, there's no A/C anywhere in the house, this is SoCal). This means in winter the garage temp can drop to 48-50 F (warmer than outside but colder than house interior, since garage is not insulated). In summer on a very hot day the garage temp can approach 90 F. However, humidity is usually not an issue as it might be for wpduet or whirlcool.

I use HE powder and do not overdose. I use a coffee measure and use 1/2 scoop (1 tbsp) of Persil or Ariel, maybe 2/3 scoop of Tide HE or Gain HE for an average load. For heavy soil or very large load, 3/4 scoop if Euro detergent, 1 scoop for Tide or Gain. I look for suds on the door or in gasket at end of cycle as a sign I am using too much. So far, after three weeks of owning the new Electrolux machines, I have not seen any suds at all, so either I am underdosing a bit or else the Electrolux rinses out better than the Frig 2140 did.

The Electrolux has no "extra rinse" button per se, as opposed to the 2140 with its "extra rinse" option, but there is a "allergen" cycle which I believe uses either larger rinse water volume or else it applies an additional rinse. Not sure, but so far have only used the default rinses that come with each given cycle---and leaving it at that unless I see suds. I don't have skin allergies to detergent (but avoid fragrance and unnecessary additives) so extra rinse isn't an issue to me, under normal circumstances.

 

[mdicino]

My Samsung FL is a Ship Screw With Installed Annode!

Hi, my 5 year old Samsung VRT with Steam just became an Anchor! I am ex-Navy and was in total disbelief anyone would design such a flaw. The corrosion issue on these spiders is completely GALVANIC corrosion. Don't tell me about blah blah blah just slight basic pH 8.0 ....no way, that pH argument is WEAK SAUCE! Small pH issue may accelerate some minor pitting corrosion on STEEL parts, but not Aluminum alloy. Kicking our dumb FL set to the curb as soon as we can install good ol tried and true top loader....our old top loader set was 12 yrs old and had only 1 failure of a drive clutch....and that was easy replace compared to what takes to replace a spider with a part guaranteed to fail again. Ouch!

 

[combo52]

corroded and broken spiders

This has nothing to do with galvanic corrosion, it is almost 100% user error.

 

If you read over the previous threads carefully you'll see that it has everything to do with using two little detergent using cooler to cold water and basically just not getting clothing clean.

 

When the washer does not clean clothing it leaves the grime dirt oil's on the inside surfaces of the washer and it coats the aluminum spider keeping it moist with dirt and causing it to corrode. Having worked on thousands of front-loading washers I have never seen one yet with a broken spider that was not a stinky mess it's entirely user caused.

 

If the manufacturer was doing something wrong with the construction and the materials used everyone of these washers would break when in reality the majority can last more than 20 years with virtually no corrosion on the spider.

 

John L.

 

 

[mark_wpduet]

Yep I know for a fact my duet

has an aluminum spider because I've seen pics posted here of someone doing a refurb on one exactly like mine, and mine is approaching 12 years old. So it must be a combination of user error and the area it's located in. But someone also mentioned that it could be the actual quality of the metals - which could be different from one machine to another - that could also explain why one lasts as long as mine while another lasts only 5 years. I dunno. But I have loved my machine and my next one is going to be a FL Maypool or Whirlpool....But it would be GREAT if my washer lasts another 5 years - I guess it's possible but I think very unlikely. Something in it has to go eventually. I'm just glad I can use the same pedestals (at least that's what they told me)

 

[brucelucenta]

combo

That is good to know. If anything, I use too much detergent and wash nearly everything in hot water with the heat boost on. I also use bleach every so often also. I hope that means my machine stays clean and the spider doesn't corrode. I also always use the maximum of rinses it allows too and run the self clean cycle on occasion.