Spider Corrosion, And Foul Odors, In Front Load Washers

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Stinky washer!!

The only thing that has caused my FL to stink was FOCA detergent. Don't know why, but I had to do a tub clean cycle after I rewashed the clothes with Tide. I still cannot figure out that smell. I run at least 13 loads a week in my LG, but I always leave the door wide open and take out the dispenser drawer when I'm not using it for a few days. I am counting on this washer lasting for five years, after that it will be a bonus.
 
FOCA Laundry Aid

To Amyswasher
Thank you for your input. I am not familiar with the FOCA detergent but reading other posts it seems as though it is ‘high sudsing’ and likely to contain phosphates. When did this incident take place?
Similarly I am not familiar with the design of the LG’s spider so I do not know if it has recesses up near the hub, should it have, then it is possible that considerable quantities of ‘suds’ collected in that area and then went foul. How long after using the FOCA did you notice the smell?
I could not find a MSDS for FOCA on the web so have no idea what its ingredients are or what its pH is.
Thank you once again and I look forward to your response.
Regards
 
BOSCH WASHERS AND LCB

I went by my local Lowes store yesterday and checked out the new Bosch washers. Both the full sized 4500 and 3300 models have dispensers for LCB only. The 24" compact model was still the old style and did not have the dispenser. Bosch seems to be coming around to what every else already knows that LCB will actually extend the life of FL washers. Machines that have a high temp wash [ over 150F] should not have LCB in the heated wash water that will give off unpleasant fumes and may damage electrical control parts of the machine. It has nothing to do with the spider corroding. Unless some new relevant information is found on this issue I am signing off on this topic.
 
Bosch Washers and LCB

It is interesting to note that combo52 has dropped the temperature for the production of hazardous fumes from 200F to over 150F. A pity he did not enlighten us as to why!
I have been unable to find any manuals, or indeed any relevant details for the two machines combo52 has named, even on the Bosch home page, so I am unable to comment on the apparent ‘permission’ of Bosch to use LCB in their ‘latest’ machines. Can anyone else help out there?
I did note that from the Bosch homepage, that what appear to be some of the latest models, have an ‘extra sanitary wash cycle’ which is claimed to take the water to 170F. However the limited technical specifications for the same models state that there is no tub sanitizer.
 
FOCA

It was right after I took the clothes out of the washer. Where I live lots of people use FOCA (with my accent it sound like I'm saying something else), because of hard water. It didn't make very many suds in the FL. It couldn't be very good for the washer, but I did a tub clean with 2 Finish tabs and all was good. It works well in TL, but will never go in my FL again. There are other Mexican Detergents at the store, but you have to lay them out in the sun to dry, no tumble dryer whatsoever.
 
I forgot!

If your water is not very hard, it's a pain to use FOCA. It takes several rinses in a TL. Had a family member who went to the store one day and thought FOCA is cheap. She was ticked when she couldn't get suds out of the clothes after two rinses. It wasn't such a deal after that.
 
Bosch Washers And LCB

To foraloysius
Thank you I missed that one. I have now downloaded the manual for the Vison 800 Series.
This manual contains the following: -
On page 2
Under the heading ‘3-Part Detergent Jet Dispenser’ the statement ‘A 3-part dispenser automatically distributes detergent, bleach and softener at exactly the right times.’
Under the heading ‘XxtraSanitary Cycle’ the statement ‘With this innovative cycle, a thermostat-controlled intelligent system heats up the water to 170F. The clothes are thoroughly cleaned and sanitized while killing 99.99% of the most common household bacteria.’
Under the heading ‘Internal Water Heater’ the statement ‘An internal heating element heats the water to up to 180F while a digital temperature sensor continually monitors the water temperature. Bosch Vision washers deliver the most efficient and accurate water heating method for each selected fabric type.’
On page 21
Under the heading ‘[3] Bleach Compartment’ there are the instructions for filling the compartment. A caution against overfilling. An instruction not to pour the bleach directly onto the laundry. A note that the bleach will be automatically dispensed at the correct time. A note that concentrated or thick bleach and powder bleach must be dilute prior to being poured into the dispenser. A note that spilled bleach may discolor the washer surfaces.
Under the heading ‘Decolorizing’ a ‘Notice’ stating ‘Dyes may contain sulphur or chlorine. These substances may cause part of the washing machine to corrode. Do not dye items of laundry in the washing machine.’
On page 28
Under the heading ‘Cleaning tips’ is the recommendation that 0.5 cup of household bleach be run through the machine once every three months, with no laundry in place on the ‘Regular/Cotton Hot cycle’
There is nothing about a drum sanitizing cycle or anything similar.

From this it could reasonably be deduced that Bosch either no longer have components in this washer that give off ‘hazardous fumes’ when chlorine bleach comes in contact with them or that the fumes were not hazardous to humans in the first place only to components in the machine which are no longer fitted. The argument about high temperature causing the fumes to be given off would appear to be irrelevant. The possible temperatures in this machine are, if anything, capable of reaching even higher levels than those in the previously discussed two machines.

The only thing left is to try and get Bosch to tell us what is different now, and hopefully what the spider is now made of! Anyone any ideas?
 
Don't know about Bosch

But my May-Pool FL'r doesn't dispense bleach in the wash where the HOT water is, it dispenses in the first rinse which is tap cold. Thus it doesn't interfear with enzyme detergents and is not exposed to the HOT water and heater where fumes would be more prevelant.

I am being careful with bleach in my new machine, because I gave more for it than I did my first car and I want it to last. I also bought an extended warranty.
 
Corrosion & Bleach

ToIheartmaytag
Thank you for the input it is duly noted.
Bleach is corrosive at lower (cold tap) temperatures so once introduced into the machine the potential for corrosion of aluminium components exists, until such time as all traces of it, or any other additive which has the capability to corrode aluminium for that matter, have been removed. I believe owners of these machines should be so advised.
Good luck with your machine and hopefully you will not be one of the unfortunate minority who suffer problems.
Thank you again
 
Iheartmaytag

the real chances of bleach doing damage is very low. Whe used as directed. If misused then that is a totally different story. As said before in the plant I use bleach that is 10% 15 % and 20@ and have NEVER EVER had a machine fail due to that. I have had one home machine that lasted more than 5 years under the extreme conditions we put it thu and is still going strong in a employees home. Also have 1 150 that is almost 20 years old now and it to has not a single problem due to bleach.. We also bleach @ 150 and fumes have NEVER been a problem either. Most of the time on the home machines the dry bleach 20% (almost 4x as strong as home bleach) is added right with the detergent. and NEVER a problem ever! So dont be too concerned about it, The chances of a electric shock and turning you in to Lady Godiva are greater.
 
Decomposition of Sodium Hypochlorite (Bleach)

To sudsman and Iheartmaytag.
On thinking about your posts I started to wonder, ‘Over what temperature range is bleach effective?’
The information I have so far been able to glean is that it starts to slowly decompose when heated above 104F (40C) and the rate of this decomposition rises with increasing temperature and increasing concentration. Its boiling point is stated in several MSDS’s as 110C (we are not going to get that in normal ‘washing machines’).
According to the MSDS’s that I perused the pH value on one was stated to be ‘neutral’ (I take this to be 7.0, the neutral point on the pH scale) with a 1% solution, other MSDS’s gave varying values up to 14.0 (totally alkaline) with varying concentrations up to a 15% solution (pH 14.0).
Anyone know where there is more information on the decomposition of sodium chloride at temperatures above 104F?
 
Home machines

We have had just about every brand there is at one time or another. At this time we have a Frigidaire Gallery. The last one was a Gallery also, And it pulled more than 5 very hard years. And is still working in a employees home. We had at the same time 2 LG also. over the years just about every brand made however. Keep in mind I do not expect them to last over a year but all have made that and more. they pull on avg 10 loads a day 7 days a week for a avg of 300 loads per mo. over 3600 loads a year. Now that is pushing a washer. Oh yes there are minor things. Drain pumps clog up due to mop strings its expected and water valves sometimes fail also expected but I have a VERY good maintaince man that takes care of them and I have had very little down time with any of the home machines except the damn LGs they were awful but did make 2 full years also. [this post was last edited: 7/23/2010-10:16]
 
LCB INFL WASHERS

More evidence that LCB actually extends the life of the washers, I don't know where these stupid rummers about properly using LCB in washers is going to cause great harm to the machine. P S try to get your money back on that extended warranty unless you have money to burn they aren't worth it. The average machine that starts out with an extended warranty is thrown away years earlier than machines that don't have these rip off plans.
 
I bought the extended warranty

More for the electronics than the mechanics.

I have a Maytag Dishwasher that the control board was replaced twice (2x) in 18 months.
I was a scared about having to replace a $400 control board on the washer so I opted for the EW.
 
100% agree

the extended warranty are not worth the money most of the time. if you can get it back do so. If your going to have problems it will happen during the regular warranty. More attenention should be paid to thoses who really know like the service people than ones with questionable reasons, Most all agree LCB when used as directed WILL NOT HARM A WASHER!
 
Spider Corrosion

To sudsman
Should it not be LCB then what is causing the corrosion of the aluminium spiders? Please do not forget that I believe that any laundry aid with the potential to reach a pH above about 8.0 could cause corrosion of the spiders. Please let me have your thoughts and ideas, and of course any reference to a reliable source which substantiates those ideas.
Thank you.
 
I believe that any laundry aid with the potential to reach a

Just beacuse you believe it does not make it true. I find it quite strange that there are over 1300 memebers on this site and not a single one has had the same problem.If anyone would have the problem I would have it first. And I have not had any such problems ever. Perhaps the real cause is yourself, How is anyone to know you did not use excess amounts of bleach or other products to cause it to happen.. NO mfg is going to make a laundry product that when used as directed will harm a washer. I have seen NO real proof that the spider was in that bad of shape anyway. More like normal use. Things do show wear as they are used. So you can keep sounding the siren and I will keep giving the all clear![this post was last edited: 7/23/2010-16:14]
 
Spider Corrosion

To sudsman
It seems obvious to me that you have not read my posts on this thread, or if you have you have, you comprehend little of what I am saying.

From my first post I have stated that for the corrosion to occur the pH of the ‘water’ remaining after the last spin will have to rise to above the level where corrosion will take place. I believe that this will occur as the water evaporates and the concentration of contaminants increases. Is there a flaw in this theory? If so, what?

In my opinion the situation you are working in is one where the machines will likely rarely, if ever, ‘dry out’ to such an extent that corrosion will occur. Should corrosion ever occur it would be that infrequent that it would not be a factor in the longevity of the machine. I have stated much the same as this in the above posts 445740 and 446136 on 30th June and 1st July respectively.

With respect to the comments in your last post above.
I agree with you just because I believe something does not mean it is true, similarly your beliefs are not necessarily true either. We have our opinions and yes they differ.
I may be the only member of this site whose has had this happen to them, and remember my spider did not suffer catastrophic failure. As I have stated above I do not believe that with the way you say ‘your’ machines are used that you would be anywhere near the first to suffer spider corrosion.
We may well have unintentionally ‘misused ‘ our machine. When we first purchased it we used powdered detergent, this was permitted as per the owners manual, which mentioned nothing about HE detergents, just recommended ‘low sudsing’ which were not generally available at that time. Yes we did use bleach, again ‘allowed’ as per the owners manual. Finally yes we did us Oxi products no mention of them in the owners manual.
I should add that six plus years later when we purchased a second similar machine the owners manual still contains the same information although in a slightly different format.
You are correct my spider was not corroded sufficiently to warrant, in my opinion, renewal for that reason. It was renewed because the brass sleeve on which the seal lips rub was abraded, I believe by the spring seal rubbing on it.
I may be the only one on this site who has experienced spider corrosion. I have no positive way of determining that although I will admit there are very few references to it. I am far from alone in this respect however. Just ‘Google’ “Spider Corrosion In Front Load Washers’, or something similar, and see what results you get. Should you wish to see what corrosion could do to the spiders please visit ‘fixitnow.com/wp/2010/10/28’.
With respect to your statement that no manufacturer will make a laundry product that when used as directed will harm washer. This remains, as far as I am concerned, to be proven.

I note that you have started another thread to put your point of view. At the moment I see no point in responding directly to it particularly as your continue to rant on without reference to any readily available, reliable point of reference or to counter any of y points with a rationally thought out, and comprehensible rebuttal.
Good Day
 
We may well have unintentionally ‘misused ‘ our machine

And NOW the REAL truth is KNOWN to ALL ! And you are the one that strated the rant and that is just and all it so plainly is.
And as far as the thread I created about the use of bleach, the truth of bleach use has been colored so greatly on this thread it is time it is bleached pure white again.. Pass the Clorox please! Put that on your spider and give it a spin! [this post was last edited: 7/24/2010-10:23]
 
And if you were to actually ask the people who had suffered the spider failure how the machine was used I can almost 100% guarantee you that it was with cold water, not enough detergent and/or the wrong detergent and little to no bleach. But I highly doubt you would get an honest answer.

As I said earlier there are machine protectants in the detergent. If you don't use the proper detergent in the proper amount for soil level and water hardness then the machine will not be protected. This IS a fact, IS documented and has been the RULE for decades. It really is not difficult to understand. People are just too stubborn and too cheap to follow directions. The manufacturer is not going to tell you to do something that is going to cause damage to their product.

I really don't think drying out has anything to do with the situation. If there is mineral build up around any part of the machine that touches the seal it will abrade the seal. Mineral build up also acts as a wick.
 
I have always used LCB in my Duet. The dispenser holds a very small amount, once diluted in the 1st rinse it's not very strong. Then adding two more rinses it's almost all/if not all gone. I think it's too little concentration to do any type of damage. If you were to put a cup of bleach in each time, the yeah.
 
To Jetcone, surgilator and mark_wpduet
First Jetcone
Since my response to you on 6 July, post number 447448, I have found, and read, a paper by one Gaute Svenningsen on the corrosion of aluminium. I found it very interesting in that it is the first time I have found any reference to the ‘mechanics’ of what is commonly called ‘pitting corrosion’ in aluminium. Whilst the author calls it ‘micro galvanic corrosion’ and, having read his paper I have to agree with him; it should not be confused with the more normally accepted ‘galvanic corrosion’ where two dissimilar materials, such as steel and aluminium are immersed in an electrolyte, such as seawater and one, in this case the aluminium, corrodes. Therefore Jetcone it would appear that you are correct in calling it galvanic corrosion, but I would not call it ‘like a capacitor’. It is however the major contributor in the item we have under discussion and therefore I was incorrect in my assessment. My apologies. Should you, or anyone else for that matter, be interested in reading the paper, I downloaded it from the internet, just ‘Google’ “Gaute Svenningsen Corrosion in Aluminium”, I will forward you a copy, if so requested.

Next surgilator
Thank you for your input. I agree with you, you are unlikely to receive a fully truthful answer should the owner/operator suspect that they perhaps have done ‘something’ ‘wrong’. That is just human nature. I can only say I know how ours was used and I now realise, since after I performed the bearing renewal and started investigating, that we had likely been misusing it although we had followed the instructions in the owners manual. I understand that there is a court case was brought against Sears in Madison County, Illinois, earlier this year because of much the same thing, but in this case TL machines. Owners were not happy with failures, Sears say you did not maintain machines correctly, owner says, where were those instructions? I do not know if the case is still ongoing or has been settled.
Just for the record so that no one can claim I am holding back information our oldest machine was purchased in May 2001 in California and used there for eight months. At that time we live in an apartment and had no control over the ‘hot’ water temperature. The machine was regularly used with a ‘hot’ wash; using powdered detergent (not HE it was not readily available), bleach, (which in our machines is dispensed at the same time as the detergent). I was often called upon to wear white boilersuits (coveralls) as part of my employment. Hence the frequent use. Sometimes we also used the ‘powdered ‘Oxi’ products but not at the same time as the bleach. In February of 2002 we moved to the greater Montreal area where the water heater was oil fired and we regularly ‘turned up’ the thermostat when we wanted a ‘very hot’ wash, other wise the usage pattern was much the same. It was during this time that my wife first noticed ‘the smell’ only ‘very slight’ we did nothing about it at that time. In May 2005 we sold the house in ‘Montreal’ and the washer was placed in storage, with our other household goods, until we moved into our retirement home in rural Newfoundland, October 2005. Here the water heaters are electric and are not set very high (about 130F). I can see I am going to have to make access to the thermostats easier and ‘turn them up’ when a ‘hot wash’ is required. The rest is recorded elsewhere on this thread.
I do not know of any protectants in the detergents, I cannot recollect seeing anything mentioned in any of the MSDS’s that I have perused. Perhaps they do not have to be listed I do not know, do you?
I agree that the correct dosage of all laundry aids is important, to little and the job won’t get done, to much and you are wasting the ‘aid’, polluting the environment and quite literally throwing money down the drain. With respect to the hardness of the water I grew up in an area with very hard water, was good to drink and made a lovely cup of tea, but played the proverbial merry hell with water heaters, kettles, water central heating systems etc. I remember my parents always added a handful of ‘washing soda’ to the washing machine or the ‘copper’ (clothes boiler), in our case coal gas heated but for many a small coal fire underneath the tub. Enough of the memories back to reality. I believe you will however agree that it is extremely difficult to judge exactly how much detergent is required to ‘just get the clothes clean’. Any excess is not only wasteful but in the case of FL machines with aluminium spiders potentially hazardous to the spiders.
I agree that people can be infuriatingly stubborn an even when presented with irrefutable evidence, still refuse to believe it or check it, and here I am not talking about an opinion, view, understanding or the like, which is largely what we are dealing with here. As an example the EPA stating, on their web page, that they do not approve ozone generators as air cleaners, they only register the design so that in the event of the need for a recall or similar they know which models to call in, but you then get some peddlers of these machines insisting that they are EPA approved, but said peddlers will not check the EPA’s home page.
As for a manufacturer not telling you what can/will damage their product in my case why 6 years after we purchased our first machine and then purchased another was there no appreciable difference in the use and care instructions/information. As I said in an earlier post I spent a fair amount of time investigating machinery failures, not in the laundry industry, I hasten to add, and my experience is that manufacturers are extremely reluctant to admit any sort of oversight, lack of forethought, incomplete design review or whatever appears to be causing the problem. In some, isolated instances, I have known manufacturers be extremely casual with the truth. In view of this I admit I am extremely cynical when someone tells me a manufacturer would not do such and such. Again it is just human nature and, in some cases, an attempt to protect the bottom line.

Should drying out not have anything to do with the situation I do not have a case, unless I am misunderstanding you. To save me repeating it all again please just refer to the penultimate paragraph in my first post in this thread. I am referring to the corrosion of the spider, not the failure of the bearings.

I agree that anything rubbing on the seal, particularly without lubrication, will abrade the seal. I also agree that the build-ups we see on the spiders, be they mineral or something else, do have the potential to act as wicks, and therefore the ability to absorb water contaminated with laundry aids, soil, and impurities from the original tap water and, as such, also have the potential, as they ‘dry out’ to reach a pH value where corrosion could occur.

In the case we have under consideration. i.e. the central area of the spider between the inner and outer drums. This area will receive little of the ‘water’ from the washing and rinsing processes. What it does receive will not be ‘spun out’ even during the fastest spin cycle and therefore will remain after the cycle has finished. I ask you does this seem possible? The closest I can come up with is a cars wheel. Even after a relatively fast run some water remains towards the centre and when the vehicle stops some of this water drains down, but some remains. Does this make any sort of sense to you?

To mark
Thank you for your input.
Unless we are able to guarantee that all the water, except what is actually retained in the laundry, is capable of being removed we have the possibility that that the remaining water will have the potential to cause corrosion.
I fully agree that anything left after 3 rinses is not going to be very concentrated but please see my last paragraph to surgilator above which I believe explains how I think it may occur.

Thank you all once again and I look forward to your comments.
Regards
 
Metal Fatigue?

Perhaps metal fatigue plays a bigger part in this what with heating water to 160 then dropping to tap cold in the winter time. That is quite a swing!

Malcolm
 
Metal Fatigue & Low Temperature Performance Of Aluminium

To Malcolm – mrb627
Thank you for your input.
I believe what is commonly called ‘metal fatigue’ is very likely the ultimate cause of the vast majority of catastrophic spider failures. I believe it is generally described as the failure of a metal due to cyclic stresses. Which would cover the situation just prior to a spider ‘breaking’ whilst the machine was actually running. I do not believe very many spiders actually drop apart with the machine stationary.

With regard to the low temperature performance, and thermal shock.
As I do not know what the actual composition(s) of the aluminium alloy(s) of the spiders are; it is, I feel, rather pointless, to try and determine what the charpy results for the spiders would be. I do not believe that it is not a possibility and should be taken into account for the failure of spiders where no corrosion is evident. I do know that, as a generalization, the charpy results for steel tend to start to drop quite dramatically at about 0C and our water up here in Canada, in winter, is not much above that. However, even as a generalization, I do not know, how aluminium behaves under similar circumstances. Has anyone out there any knowledge of this? As a very generalization ‘metals’ do tend to become more brittle with falling temperatures.

Charpy tests are ‘notch tests’ carried out on an ‘Izod’ tester to determine the ‘notch resistance’ of the material under consideration and are carried out at specified ‘lower’ temperatures.

I can only recollect one post, on another site, where the poster, a washer repairman, stated that he had seen several fractured spiders with no evidence of corrosion. He did state that all the fractures were where the arm joined the hub of the spider. So far he has not responded to my query regarding the manufacturer(s) of these spiders.

Once again thank you for your input and I look forward any further comments you may have.
 
Whirlpool's Response-Or Lack Thereof

At my second attempt I have received a response from Whirlpool reproduced below, together with a copy of my communication to them

Dear Mr. XXXXX,

Thank you for visiting the Whirlpool web site. We appreciate hearing from you.

Please accept our apologies for the difficulties and inconvenience you have experienced with your washer. We are in correspondence and are not licensed technicians or engineers. Any technical aspect of an appliance we are not trained in beyond the basic troubleshooting.

A response pertaining to how the Affresh product restricts mold growth and foul odor while at the same time combating corroding we are not able to supply. You may be certain that a copy of your comments has been forwarded to the appropriate department for review and investigation though. One of our engineers will not contact you to discuss this matter but you may be certain that such aspects are thoroughly examined and will be implemented if so needed.

Thank you for contact Whirlpool.

Sincerely,

Dianna D.
e-Solutions Specialist
Whirlpool Customer eXperience Center
http://www.whirlpoolappliances.ca

*If replying, please use Forward verses Reply or New as that will leave this message intact and will help us to respond faster.
THREAD ID:1-DUZTPU]



-----Original Message-----

From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 7/29/2010 05:39:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Questions and Comments

Your Details are.

The following information has been received

Regarding : Other
Subject : Spider Corrosion And Foul Odours In Front Loading Washers
Comments : The spiders in your front-loading washing machines are manufactured from aluminium alloys, as is the norm for the industry. It is a well known, and well documented fact that aluminium is corroded when immersed in an aqueous solution with a pH value below about 4.0 (nitric acid is a well documented exception) and above about 8.0. A very informative one page paper on this subject is available 'on the web', just "Google" 'Gaute Svenningsen Aluminium Corrosion' and read the result.
Are you aware that a great many laundry aids, including HE detergents have a pH above 8.0. Your own Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for your 'Affresh' gives its pH as 10.5-10.7 with a 1% solution meaning, that should the required concentration be reached, it could corrode the spiders in front loading washing machines.
A great many front-loading washing machines have suffered failed spiders due to corrosion. For examples, including one of yours, just visit 'fixitnow.com/wp/2009/10/28'
I believe that at the end of the last spin of a washing cycle, no matter what the spin speed, a very small quantity of water will remain on the spider near the shaft, this situation I further believe will be aggravated by recesses in the spider in this area, as in your spider on the above website. This 'water' will contain very small quantities of the laundry aids used, soil, products of the reactions between the laundry aids and soil from the laundry, and chemicals from the 'tap water'. As the water evaporates from this mixture the concentration of the impurities will increase until such time as the pH level reaches a value at which corrosion will commence. Should the pH level not rise sufficiently to cause corrosion the 'impurities' in the 'water' will leave a deposit, which will cause mould and foul odours which is also a common complaint with this type of washer.I would appreciate your comments on the above.Thank you and regards
Product : Washers
Modelno : Front Loaders
Serialno :

Future emails from Whirlpool : No
 
Apology

It has come to, my attention that there is an error in the final line of my post on 23 July 2010. The last line should read: -

Anyone know where there is more information on the decomposition of sodium hypochlorite at temperatures above 104F?

My apologies for any inconveniences or misunderstandings this may have caused. Please be assured it was unintentional.
Once again my apologies.
 
Bosch's Replies - Well Sort Of

After two e-mail attempts elicited no response from Bosch, I tried the telephone and reached a lady in the greater Montreal area. The exchange of e-mails that resulted is copied below.

As I consider these unsatisfactory answers I tried ¡®snail mail¡¯, again copied below. So far I have not received a response. Should a response be received I will post it.

XXXXXXXXXXX
Bosch Home Appliances XXXXXXXXXX
5551 McFadden Avenue XXXXXXXXXXX
Huntingdon Beach XXXXXXXXXXX CA 92649 Canada
USA 24th July 2010

Dear Sir,

Front Load Washers and Bleach (Sodium Hypochlorite)

I have been trying to obtain answers to three questions: -

1. In the Instruction manuals for models WFL 2060 and WFL 2090 one is instructed not to use chlorine bleach on three occasions, not including the mention of voiding the warranty in the warranty section. In one of these sections it is stated that ¡®hazardous fumes¡¯ could be given off.
In the section under decolorizing one is instructed not to decolorize items in the machine as decolorants may contain sulphur or chlorine that may cause corrosion of some washer components. A similar instruction is carried in the manual for the Vision 800 series. My question is what components may be damaged?
2. I note that in the manual for the Vision 800 series that the use of bleach is permitted and that its use is recommended in a cleaning cycle once every three months. My question is what has changed from the WFL 2060 and WFL 2050 that enables the use of bleach to now take place?
3. What is the material of the spider?

I have tried sending an e-mail on this subject but have received no response. I have tried calling the 1-800 number. I enclose a copy of the subsequent exchange of e-mails. I consider these hardly completely satisfactory answers. The model WFL 2090 is still shown as available on your web home site. I now try this.

My mailing address is as shown above, my email address is XXXXXXXX, my telephone number is XXX XXX XXXX.

I hope to hear from you.

Yours sincerely

XXXXXXX
From: Lavoie, Andre (FS)
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Pepin, Isabelle (CS)
Subject: RE: Vision washer

The WFL European machine cannot be compare with the Vision machine design for North America,The amount of water in both unit are not the same,Consumer still need to be careful with the usage of chlorine in the vision unit.If too much chlorine is use in the unit,it can damage the seal of the bearing in a long terms.It's only a question of dilution.


From: Pepin, Isabelle (CS)
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 5:54 PM
To: Lavoie, Andre (FS)
Subject: FW: Vision washer

Hello Andr¨¦,i made a mistake in my question,can you read the customer question please?


22/07/2010
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XXXXXXXXX
Hi Thank you for the response unfortunately it does not answer my question:- What is the difference between the Vision 800 series that allows the use of bleach whereas in earlier models it was not per
To [email protected]
From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: July 22, 2010 7:01:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Hi
Thank you for the response unfortunately it does not answer my question:-
What is the difference between the Vision 800 series that allows the use of bleach whereas in earlier models it was not permitted. The manuals for the WFL 2050 and the WFL 2090 instruct not to use chlorine bleach in three separate statements, one of these also states that 'Hazardous Fumes' could be given off. In both of the above mentioned manuals and the manual for the Vision 800 is the statement under 'Decolorizing' that dyes could contain sulphur or chlorine and that these could cause corrosion of some of the washing machine components. These seems odd as chlorine bleach contains chlorine and is corrosive to many materials, including aluminium. So what components are there that could still be damaged by chlorine in the Vision that are safe for bleach but not chlorine?
Thank you for your time.
XXXXXXXXXXX
22/07/2010
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Pepin, Isabelle (CS) Add to contacts
Hello,i forward you the response of our technician. Thank you and have a nice day Isabelle P¨¦pin ______________________________________________ From: Lavoie, Andre (FS) Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 1
To XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
From: Pepin, Isabelle (CS) ([email protected])
Sent: July 22, 2010 3:19:43 PM
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Hello,i forward you the response of our technician.
Thank you and have a nice day
Isabelle P¨¦pin
______________________________________________
From: Lavoie, Andre (FS)
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 1:21 PM
To: Pepin, Isabelle (CS)
Subject: RE: Vision washer
You could also put some bleach in the Nexxt series but a really small quantity .this is the same with the vision. And the spider is cast aluminum with S/S insert.
_____________________________________________
From: Pepin, Isabelle (CS)
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 1:11 PM
To: Lavoie, Andre (FS)
Subject: Vision washer

Hi Andr¨¦,
A customer is asking me what have been changed on the new Vision washer,that now he can put some bleach in and with the Nexxt model he could not,and he also whant to know of what material the spider ismade.
Thanks
Isabelle:-)
Isabelle P¨¦pin
BSH Home Appliances-Canada
Repr¨¦sentante au Service ¨¤ la Client¨¨le
Customer Service Representative
9220 Boulevard du Golf
Anjou, Qu¨¦bec
H1J 3A1
Bosch; 1 (800) 944-2904
Thermador; 1 (800) 735-4328
Gaggenau; 1 (877) 442-4436
Fax: 1 (714) 845-2676
Couriel [email protected]
E-mail [email protected]
 
Bosch's Answer

I have now received a letter response from Bosch.
I will précis the main points of the letter. Should anyone want a copy drop me an email and I will scan it and forward a copy.
The letter makes no reference to the emails from the technician so we must assume that they are accurate.

The AXXIS units WFL2060 and 2090 are small European units that do not have a bleach cycle and chlorine bleach will damage the hoses. It is in order to use non-chlorine bleach in these washers.

The VISION series are full size washers; they and the NEXXT series, will accept chlorine bleach. They both have bleach cycles and the hoses are made of chlorine resistant material.

Decolorizing is a term for dyeing. Dyes contain substances that can cause damageto the washers.
 

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